No, Dan, you cannot. Despite what you think, there actually has to be damage done for a defamation suit.

Nice try, though.

I checked out your RESEARCH SITE which you no doubt gathered from a Google search right?

Let me guess, KKK + Wisconsin right, or maybe it was Wisconsin + KKK, yeah there is a group. Hardly what I'd call mainstream. According to this "Intelligence Project"

Every single state in the nation has a racist group. Oh except the tiny and unpopulated ones like Hawaii, ND, SD, and ROAD ISLAND,

Thats is which certainly supports you assertion that "racism is everywhere" which I agree with. However, considering there is no active chapter in Oshkosh according to your own "Intelligence Project" and no record of violence in Appleton based on the "Intelligence Project"

I continue to have to disagree with your assertion that Appleton is "racist by nature". Please don't also make the connection that because neo nazi exist, and because the apparently have a party in Appleton, as well as hundreds of other cities in the United States, that Appleton Neo Nazism is going to bring a resurgence of Nazism in the United States, being that we are so "racist by nature" up here. LOL.

Can you even take me seriously at this point Gid?

Here's some more research for ya...

http://www.wrn.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=31FD7BA8-784C-4A8F-A53E3707B8F043EE

"The Ku Klux Klan has apparently cancelled a rally scheduled for the Capitol steps this Saturday, but Wisconsin Klan spokesman Mike McQueeny says he won't personally call it off unless the Governor Thompson apologizes for his anti-Klan remarks and agrees to pay for the distribution of some Klan literature. But Governor's spokesman Kevin Keane says Thompson has no plans to apologize to McQueeny and thinks the Klan backed off because they simply knew they weren't welcome in Madison."

Smoke and mirrors I'm sure or some such bs you'll have to respond to that.

Actually, the Southern Poverty Law Center is one of the most authoritative sources on hate groups in America, Dan. Law enforcement agencies use their data in tracking hate groups. Again, this is something you would know if you had studied up much on it.

Do a little research on the SPLC, Dan, and you'll discover that I am right on this. The organization dates back to 1971 (according to wikipedia, at any rate), and their data on hate groups is generally regarded as reliable.



No, I'll be fair here. I would say it's a fair bet that if you could get membership rolls from the Appleton group, they probably include members from cities like Oshkosh, Neenah, Menasha, Little Chute, and others in the area and that Appleton is only their base. However, when I referenced racist activity I had personally witnessed in Oshkosh, you dismissed it as being unique to Oshkosh.

There are few acts of racial violence in Wisconsin in part because it is predominantly white. But they're not altogether absent, a point I'm sure you would readily concede.

I believe humans are by nature racist, Dan, and that Wisconsin is no exception. That doesn't mean that all humans are racist, just that the tendency is generally there. Wisconsin is in my experience, no more or no less racist than the rest of the nation. My only issue is when people from Wisconsin belittle racism from other states as if they were somehow above it.

But how would they even think of organizing if the Klan didn't EXIST in Wisconsin?

"No, Dan, you cannot. Despite what you think, there actually has to be damage done for a defamation suit.

Nice try, though."

Shucks I was just joking anyway, in the middle of punching gigantic holes in your theory of rampant Appletonian and Wisconsinite natural racist existence.

"But how would they even think of organizing if the Klan didn't EXIST in Wisconsin?"

The clan is not the central driving force or even a segment taken very seriously by the youth of this country. Unless they are indoctrinated by their parents. As you can watch on Maury Povich, nobody looks to join the clan as an adult, just like 40 year olds don't start smoking.

The reason people organize is because they know what the clan stands for and they don't want any part of it. Lots of people organize for a variety of things but when you see the statistics of the number of people who show up in the hundreds or thousands to protest the clan's 5-10-20 member show up, it becomes real clear real fast that racism and intolerance for other cultures is not a value people in Wisconsin, hold dearly.

The reason they organize to protest is because they are aware of it, because it's a big media story whenever people protest anything, certainly efforts by the Klan subverting the normal peace and freedom of people in our society locally doesn't go unnoticed.

"Actually, the Southern Poverty Law Center is one of the most authoritative sources on hate groups in America, Dan. Law enforcement agencies use their data in tracking hate groups. Again, this is something you would know if you had studied up much on it."

I'm saying the KLAN IS HARDLY MAINSTREAM, not your intelligence thingy. Why do you always try to twist my meanings or are you just dense?

"However, when I referenced racist activity I had personally witnessed in Oshkosh, you dismissed it as being unique to Oshkosh."

I dismiss it, as you making it up, until you back it, with some factual citation. Oshkosh is a different place than Appleton, that is what I said and that is what I mean. I didn't dismiss it because you think, I think Appleton is better than Oshkosh or what not like you said in your blog post asking me to do more research.

"There are few acts of racial violence in Wisconsin in part because it is predominantly white. But they're not altogether absent, a point I'm sure you would readily concede."

I will concede that there are a few acts of racial violence, duh. Few does not equal racist by nature. These acts are not also perpetrated, even in part, because of a predominate white demographic anymore than if they were in whole. They are perpetrated because people get liquored up and have nothing better to do. It is why they painted over the rock at my high school when Mexicans had their Mexican colors on it for Mexican Independence day and they put the Stars and Bars on it, replaced the next day by the school colors of Blue, White, and Gold.

If you are just looking to read into the racial side of everything, all crimes, sure you will find race, but the majority or Wisconsinites are not "racist by nature" as you characterized.

You punched holes in nothing, Dan. Everything I asserted, I supported.

Let me be frank, Dan. You could be someone I enjoyed conversing with if you didn't act like such a pompous ass. You are capable of abstract thought, but the problem is you automatically dismiss data that doesn't agree with yours as being inaccurate. A telling example is your response to the SPLC, a fairly respectable source of data.

Now, let's go outside Wisconsin a little bit for my point on northern racism. You may want to do a little hard research on the KKK. While the original Klan was organized in the South, the Klan that reorganized in the early part of the 20th century was more widespread. I'm going to use Wiki as a source on this, acknowledging it as less than perfect, but also acknowledging I don't have the time to pull up a laundry list of other sources. But you WILL find these points largely supported if you check them yourself:

The new Klan differed from the original one in that while the first Klan had been Southern, the new Klan was influential throughout the United States, with major political influence on politicians in several states. The new Klan was popular as far north as New England, where it engaged in violent activities such as torching an African American school in Scituate, Rhode Island.[52]

WWW Link

The Klan wielded very powerful influence in the midwest at one time, even controlling the state of Indiana completely for a brief time in the 30's before corruption brought that government down.

The only point I ever wanted to make in pointing out Wisconsin's racism is this, Dan: If we want to eliminate racism, we need to start with eliminating that which is closest to us. And we cannot do that by ignoring it or pretending it does not exist.

I agree with you on your general point that Appleton is a great place to live. But I disagree with you on the statement that racism is virtually nonexistent. And I have a lot of valid reasons for my position.

If you are just looking to read into the racial side of everything, all crimes, sure you will find race, but the majority or Wisconsinites are not "racist by nature" as you characterized.

"I believe humans are by nature racist, Dan, and that Wisconsin is no exception. That doesn't mean that all humans are racist, just that the tendency is generally there. Wisconsin is in my experience, no more or no less racist than the rest of the nation. My only issue is when people from Wisconsin belittle racism from other states as if they were somehow above it."

Then...

A. Why didn't you say that instead of separating Wisconsin from the rest of the Midwest and then the nation?
B. Explain that from the beginning?
C. Demonstrate a good faith argument from the beginning, backing up your supposed facts with literary citation.

You did provide some of course where is suited your point, but if you seriously believed that Wisconsin is no more or less racist than the rest of the nation, a point I specifically made, in almost the exact words, (now I'm suing you for plagirism) I just don't see how all of the sudden we can be in complete agreement when I haven't changed the tune or tone of what I have been saying since the beginning?

Thanks for finally stating the truth though Gid. I commend you for at least trying to reach common ground. I don't want you or Whip to feel that I make my point from the perspective of up on some high horse in Wisconsin, because that isn't it. I have always given the equality of perspective to everybody, until they proved to be taking advantage of it by being unfair in their discussion.

Please use the "K". My ancestry is largely Scottish and I would rather not see Scottich Clans in any way associated with this organization.



This is where I take issue. Dan, I provided you with the PHYSICAL PLACE where it happened. Because it wasn't reported, there's no hard data to give you. But I know what I, and others, witnessed.

You need to understand that every crime is not reported. Certain classes of crimes go largely unreported, and racial violence is among those categories. If I were going to "fudge" stories, Dan, I would fudge a whole laundry list of them, not a couple of incidents. And I'm a writer, I could certainly embellish more, if I were lying, as you allege.Come on, give me SOME credit here.



No, you questioned my source, Dan. All I am doing is supporting the credibility of my source. And my sources are generally reliable.

"The Klan wielded very powerful influence in the midwest at one time, even controlling the state of Indiana completely for a brief time in the 30's before corruption brought that government down."

1930's is too far gone for you to say that is it relevant. Those people old enough to have supported the clan are either dead, don't live in Indiana anymore, or aren't members of the clan. (because they are dead)

"The only point I ever wanted to make in pointing out Wisconsin's racism is this, Dan: If we want to eliminate racism, we need to start with eliminating that which is closest to us. And we cannot do that by ignoring it or pretending it does not exist."

You are saying that I said it does not exist. For the fifth time, you are mis-characterizing what I said. STOP.

Racism does exist, across the nation. BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN WISCONSIN IS RACIST BY NATURE WHICH IS WHAT YOU SAID! You said so yourself later, it is no more or less racist than anyplace else.

Pick a position and stick to it for the entire day if not the entire hour.

"But I disagree with you on the statement that racism is virtually nonexistent. And I have a lot of valid reasons for my position."

Yes you have, most of them undocumented unfortunately, you say because racism is rampant and the norm, I say because you either made em up, or the crimes were attributed to something other than racism. Valid perhaps, yet factual, not really.

For example, the Hmong hunter shooting, not racially related, culturally related but not racially related.

Because my point was and is that Wisconsin isn't on moral high ground here. I pointed out Wisconsin because you are FROM Wisconsin. If you were from Oregon, that would be my focus.

The community where I live currently has the only active chapter of the KKK in the Texas Panhandle (there are other groups, but as far as the Klan, we're the base). I believe in rooting out racism wherever exists, even (and especially) when it hits close to home.

"No, you questioned my source, Dan. All I am doing is supporting the credibility of my
source. And my sources are generally reliable."

You say I questioned it when in fact I just utilized it to point out to you racism occurs nationwide, which we both agree on. I questioned your story about the woman with the racial slur on her car and a dead raccoon in her mailbox.

"This is where I take issue. Dan, I provided you with the PHYSICAL PLACE where it happened. Because it wasn't reported, there's no hard data to give you. But I know what I, and others, witnessed."

You may be ignorant of the whole picture. You may not know whether or not it was a lover quarrel, an upset boyfriend or girlfriend. To quote a crazy bastard Rumsfeld "You don't know what you don't know."

Which is to say, you don't know the entirety of the circumstances. It could be purely, racially motivated or, it could be in part, or not at all.

"You need to understand that every crime is not reported. Certain classes of crimes go largely unreported, and racial violence is among those categories. If I were going to "fudge" stories, Dan, I would fudge a whole laundry list of them, not a couple of incidents. And I'm a writer, I could certainly embellish more, if I were lying, as you allege.Come on, give me SOME credit here."

Which is why I can find hardly anything at all on Fox Valley Racism or Appleton Racism with any credibility or in depth reporting. Certain classes of crime go largely unreported, but I don't believe that to be true in Appleton, I'm sorry. The city is not to the size where political influence or tiny budges get in the way of professional operations.

You are saying when you said "Wisconsin is racist by nature", that that wasn't embellishment?

"Because my point was and is that Wisconsin isn't on moral high ground here. I pointed out Wisconsin because you are FROM Wisconsin. If you were from Oregon, that would be my focus.

The community where I live currently has the only active chapter of the KKK in the Texas Panhandle (there are other groups, but as far as the Klan, we're the base). I believe in rooting out racism wherever exists, even (and especially) when it hits close to home."

Nobody is on high moral ground when it comes to race. The only ground needed is ethical ground. Treat people the same irregardless of race. In Appleton I believe we do as good a job of that as any, as evidenced by the cities webpage, organizations, events, and community outreach. Just because there is a small group who wants to be a rebel or supremest doesn't mean the represent the community at large.

Go ahead a rout out racism, I will work with you and support you, but don't be calling communities "racist by nature" who are not and actively work against it as much as any place else.

I don't believe that's been conclusively proven. If you have more recent data, by all means, I'd love to see it.



No, I didn't say that. You're actually misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm saying we can't do that BY ignoring it or pretending it doesn't exist. I didn't say that is what you are doing. Just that that was my point.

My point was (and is) that racism ain't just a "southern thang". It exists all over the globe.

Also, I must point out, we're both typing and responding at the same time, so there IS some wire crossing going on.



Yes, and no. You need to understand that those Klansmen had children, and that many of those children were raised in that mindset. And they raised children in that mindset.

We have thankfully, become more enlightened over the intervening years, but the influences that terrorized this country with racism exist in all parts of the country.



No, didn't say it is rampant and the norm. Not any more so than the rest of the country, anyway. All I said was that I witnessed (referring to my own personal experience, not hard data here) more virulent racism in the north than in the south.

PART of the reason for that is that the south is still largely segregated, so that racists don't live next door to the race they hate quite as often. So the hate they have doesn't boil over as quickly as in communities in the north where the communities don't divide on racial lines. So when I grew up in the poor part of town (if you're poor in the South, there's little difference between white and black), I didn't see many racist acts.



And again, I resent the inference that I made them up, Dan. That's the point that pisses me off.

How can I "prove" what wasn't in the press? I know what I saw, and I relayed it as best I could.

Again, if I were making things up, it would be in my best interest to make up a whole host of stories.

LOL.

OK, Dan, on this one, I would have to say that circumstantial evidence pointed VERY heavily at a particular individual who had some very strong views that he expressed frequently in the break room. While we can't say for sure that he did it, I'd say we were about 90%. And if it was this individual, it wasn't no lover's quarrel, that's for sure.

What really ticked me off at the whole incident wasn't the initial act. Idiots are idiots, after all, as we both well know. Where I got upset was when her car was parked in front of the window where someone HAD to have witnessed it, yet noone came forth. I have seen too many instances where people have allowed bad things to happen because they didn't want to get involved.



No, it's not political influence or tiny budgets, Dan. It's fear on the part of the victim, in my experience. I think most reporters would readily go with the story if someone would give them something solid to proceed with.



Not in my experience, no, Dan. Again, I heard a lot of "water cooler" talk, and I knew a lot of individuals there.

Now, this "water cooler" talk was not usually the violent sort of racism that lynches people in the town square, more the "nappy headed hos" brand that caricatures minorities. But it was still quite prevalent.

I found Hmongs, not blacks, the preferred target of such comments. But I did find them pretty widespread.

What makes you believe that the shooting incident, involving the Hmong man, and the party of hunters was racially motivated?

"Yes, and no. You need to understand that those Klansmen had children, and that many of those children were raised in that mindset. And they raised children in that mindset."

Point taken. But a Klan that was a political force in 1930's isn't something that could be considered mainstream. The NSDAP in Germany was the political force that catapulted Hitler to Dictator of Germany but nobody would argue the NSDAP has any "mainstream" effect in Germany.

That's not the one that I think was racially motivated. Well, I do, but I'll readily concede all evidence is circumstantial and we will likely never know the full story. So I'll give you that there's not necessarily a racist element with THAT one.

I am speaking of the more recent incident, where a Hmong hunter was murdered by a white hunter. While it again hasn't been proven, there are a lot more questions on this case.

Agreed. But the stereotype is that racism is mainstream in the South. My chief contention is that racism isn't any less present in the North, it only takes on different forms.

I wish I could get just one fully thought out response in on my own blog.

I guess you just wanna take this little diversion you have right now and run it thorough.

Don't whine. Just think of all the bonus points you're getting.

Plus you'll get mad referrals over time for the celebrity reference (which is how that danged Mary Kate article still hovers near the top of my all time top articles list!)

Look, Gid, First you said that...

"If you imply Wisconsin is not a racist state, you are either a liar or blind. Open persecution of Hmongs is practically a statewide sport! And NEVER did I see the violent acts of racism I witnessed in Wisconsin."

Which you later came back to say, Wisconsin is no more racist than anyplace else.

"And how conveniently you miss the KKK rallies in Madison."

Which I cited an article about how they were canceled due to public outcry.

"The racism followed this woman home. She was harassed at home routinely."

Which you didn't cite and I can't find any evidence of this stories existence, and you claim it doesn't matter because racism doesn't get reported because it was rampant i.e. commonplace. Going on and on to support your argument with...

"the literally hundreds of "water cooler" discussions that stereotyped Hmongs, caricatured their race, treated them as less than human and spread lies about them."

and

"Again, I heard a lot of "water cooler" talk, and I knew a lot of individuals there."

Then you said...

"No, didn't say it is rampant and the norm."

But comments like "racist by nature" and "hundreds of undocumented discussions" do not equal obscurity and a serious diversion from the mainstream.

"And again, I resent the inference that I made them up, Dan. That's the point that pisses me off."

Don't take it personally. I have no reason to believe you are being any more literal with the facts than you do me, however I have consistently attempted to provide support for what I present as factual insight by providing someone else concurring opinion. In your case you are not.

"Again, if I were making things up, it would be in my best interest to make up a whole host of stories."

Thanks for reassuring us you didn't do it, Osama. LOL.

"What really ticked me off at the whole incident wasn't the initial act. Idiots are idiots, after all, as we both well know."

You referred to me as an idiot, thanks for insulting me as well, Like I'm supposed to care about your resentment? How about you play fair and bring some citations to support your "factual assertions" or stay on your own blog writing about how I'm the big bad idiot boy who can't take a literary punch lol.

"It's fear on the part of the victim, in my experience. I think most reporters would readily go with the story if someone would give them something solid to proceed with."

Oh Bullshit, there are and have been multiple competing news outlets in the fox valley, and the "racial angle" of both the beating of an Appleton cop in Milwaukee and the Hmong hunting incident was well covered and stuck out because of the appalling nature of each crime.

"You think shows like Maury Povich reflect reality?"

Oh Give me a break Whip, only you would be so dense looking at me with your liberal red-blue filter glasses on to not think that was a joke.

"While this tactic has been successful in keeping negative public opinion towards the Klan at a fever pitch, it's done the unwary public a huge disservice by fostering complacency..."Ah, the Klan is tiny, ineffectual, and plagued with bufoonery, no need to worry about 'em at ALL."

OMG you actually do think I watch the Maury Povich show, and take notes, and uh make decisions based on that?

Fuck that, pull you head out of your ass Whip and get a clue. I was making a joking analogy, and you two are the only two losers on JU who have bought into debating it.

It's fun to drop in here on the odd day of a month and stir the pot and that is exactly what I did, for fun, you know kicks, shits and giggles.

I mean don't you feel relieved to know that the trickery is over.

"Whoopi would disagree." that there is a correlation with black people and dogfighting. Well I guess that makes it a fact then, oh well time for me to pack my bags and go write about something else. LOL

You have a Mary Kate article? Do you have a Avon one too?

Avon lady calling, opps no mamn it's just me Gid. LOL

I'm gonna fall out of my tree laughing at you guys, you are all a riot.

It's true. I never personally witnessed what I witnessed in Oshkosh. Grant you, it's not the "night rider" violence of the early KKK, but it's also not the more subtle "keep your place" racism of the south that doesn't rear its ugly head until someone gets caught in the wrong neighbourhood at the wrong hour.



I'll give you this one. I had been unaware it had been cancelled.



I already told you it wasn't reported, and I told you why. But I, and others who worked there, KNOW what happened.



Maybe the racist by nature comment was slightly hyperbolic, but the water cooler discussions were not. And I won't even go so far as to say supervisors ALWAYS ignored them WHEN THEY WERE MADE AWARE OF THEM (with the exception of one boss, who, although he talked a good game, would hire absolutely anyone who could do the job regardless of race). But racism, as you know, is one of those nasty insidious diseases nobody generally talks about until it escalates. And I don't know if you've ever been in a supervisory position, but you've got to make a pretty good paper trail to dismiss someone for racist remarks.



I don't have contact with any of my coworkers from Lamico back in the day. And even if I did, how inclined would you be to believe them?

I DO take it personally, because you called me a liar. I don't appreciate that, Dan. I was liberal enough to tell you the place of employment and other details. While that doesn't totally verify the story, it does place me "at the scene". Reporters have made front page stories with less.



Which PROVES reporters will run with the story if they're given something to run with.

OK, you are saying I'm full of shit for saying incidents aren't reported out of fear? Well, then, apparently, according to you, a lot of rapes and molestations don't happen because they're not reported out of FEAR.

Fear is not based on reality, it's based on perception. Think about this for a second. IN the case that I cited, this individual had not only harassed this woman at work, he also managed to find her at home. While there was no evidence that I'm aware of that this man was a member of a larger hate group (IF the individual we suspected was, in fact, guilty), how was she to KNOW that? I've known more than my share of morons to walk the streets sporting tatoos purporting to be members of "big, bad" organizations when they were not in any way associated. Restraining orders, as anyone who deals with domestic violence will tell you, are only as good as the paper they're written on when the individual in question is prone to violence.



Well, I guess I was mistaken in thinking the recent comments amounted to a civil discussion. You don't want me on your blog, I'll take your invitation and leave then.