Artillery Lends Dignity to What Would Otherwise Be an Ugly Brawl

The Blob: "The Ugly Brawl"
 
The danger of having combat be decided at close quarters by relatively tough units is that the entire large-scale war essentially boils down to the collision of two blobs, where generally speaking the larger blob will win. Like two barbarian hordes colliding in an open field, whoever has the larger army almost always wins, and that single confrontation decides the strategic picture of the entire conflict.
 
Currently, Ashes of the Singularity battles look very much like the "ugly brawl" of two colliding barbarian armies. And not the chess match on a prodigious scale played out in a protracted, limited engagement that it could be.
 
 
Defender's Advantage
 
"The rule is, not to besiege walled cities if it can possibly be avoided."
- Sun Tzu
 
Part and parcel of having a strategically interesting large-scale conflict is having different areas of advantage, some areas where one side will have an advantageous fight, and other areas where the opposite side will have an advantageous fight. The terrain and static features that determine which side has a local advantage need to be relatively immobile, meaning that more mobile units are forced to decide between attacking into a disadvantageous battle on purpose, or declining to attack.
 
The "walled city" quote refers to the fact that a protracted siege is a nightmare for an attacker. It's slow, ties up huge amounts of resources for a long period of time, and results in more losses for the attacker than for the defender. It's a problem. But, a day may come when the strategic needs of the war require beseiging a walled city, although the fact that it is so unfavorable means that other methods should be preferred, and tactics employed to avoid ever needing to do so.
 
 
Mobility and Positional Play
 
"He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight."
- Sun Tzu
 
Deciding whether to attack, or not to attack because the enemy's defender's advantage is too great is certainly one important consideration. But it is important to understand that an attacker should have vastly more options than just "all-out assault." A complete commitment is the final resort, from which there is no follow-up or contingency except either winning or losing the battle.
 
Limited engagements using small forces, such as scouts, picking off isolated enemy units, probing, envelopment, and various other maneuvers of less than a full engagement can potentially gain ground or kill enemies, or force the enemy to retreat, fearing a bad engagement, without ever needing to push all your chips into the center of the table. 
 
The most important of these that Ashes should focus on is envelopment. Getting behind an enemy allows you to destroy their squishy and valuable rear echelon, cut off their reinforcements, and block their option to retreat. You can then destroy the encircled enemy at your leisure by whatever method you prefer, such as by bombing them to powder, or a direct assault from multiple directions.
 
 
Fire Support
 
"The best generals are those who have served in the artillery."
- Napoleon Bonaparte
 
Artillery is the single most important fact of military strategy since its invention. In any confrontation, artillery is responsible for the overwhelming majority of the actual kills. Artillery units also spend a lot of time firing at nothing at all, either on purpose for suppression, to block movement, or just by mistake because of incorrect information about where the enemy is located.
 
Artillery has the unique ability to remove enemy units from existence with very little risk to any friendly forces. Additionally, their incredible range allows very distant forces to be supported without needing to bring the full force along with them.
 
Fire support enables a radically different kind of deployment than simply blobbing together the largest possible army. It makes more sense to use artillery as a force multiplier to multiply the strength of numerous smaller forces. Instead of deploying a huge army, deploy dozens of smaller groups, all intended to find the enemy, and rely on distant artillery to inflict grievous damage.
 
The problem with artillery is that it is helpless in a direct battle. Enemy units slipping past the front lines can either directly attack and destroy it all, or even just spot it, enabling the enemy's artillery to counter-battery and wipe it off the map. That front line of smaller units needs to be solid enough to protect the artillery and other soft units (like anti-air, logistics, engineers, airbases, etc) which stay behind the lines.
 
 
Air Support
 
"Air power may either end war or end civilization."
- Winston Churchill
 
Aircraft add an entirely new dimension to battle which allows for extremely rapid long-distance attacks with enormous firepower. But they are also expensive, fragile, and transient assets that cannot hold territory or locate ground targets for themselves, placing them strictly in a supporting role for ground forces.
 
Many aircraft in RTS games are treated mostly like ground units with a different set of weapons that target them. What should happen instead is that air units move on the board in a fundamentally different way than ground units. Fast, but transient. Powerful when aiding ground forces, but helpless without. Capable of quickly unleashing a lot of destruction, but with insufficient payload to loiter for long and destroy an entire army by themselves.
 
Aircraft should sortie from an airbase, unleash hell, and head home. If you place an air strike mission inside the enemy's air defense, your planes will take fire and may be destroyed, meaning you should be careful sending your planes too far ahead into unscouted enemy territory, as you are taking a risk to do so. In this regard, air support is more similar to artillery fire support than it is to having units in the field. But air support has very different properties, such as being speedy and flexible, and a more powerful burst attack, but susceptible to anti-air and requiring many more assets to make a sustained bombardment.
 
 
Intelligence & Deception
 
"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near."
- Sun Tzu
 
Deception can, in the right hands, have an enormous and immediately apparent force multiplying effect. For example, Zhuge Liang once encountered the situation of needing to defend a fort with only 100 men, against an advancing enemy army of 100,000 men. Winning a battle was impossible. So instead he ordered all the gates open, and instructed his men to hide inside the fort, while he stood on the ramparts playing a lyre. The enemy general, aware of Zhuge Liang's reputation as a careful and cunning tactician, and therefore convinced this could only be a trap, ordered his army to withdraw. Mission accomplished.
 
Deception allows un-winnable battles to be avoided, and impossible objectives to be achieved, by causing the enemy to do something stupid, such as declining to attack where you appear strong, or foolishly attacking where you appear weak.
 
In order for deception to be a factor, information must be hidden. Making it harder to get good information about what the enemy is really doing, coupled with the ability to expend time and units to get better information.
 
 
Strategy
 
"He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces."
- Sun Tzu
 
All of the above features have the effect of enabling a smaller force, if used cleverly, to defeat an enemy with a larger force. This fact opens up the possibility of spreading forces out into several smaller groups, anticipating a favorable engagement against a larger enemy, either through superior tactics, providing fire support of some kind, or as a deception to achieve some other objective. 
 
Because of this possibility to engage and defeat a larger army, the game is only truly over when one side's ability to fight is destroyed. Even a string of poor engagements against a larger enemy do not necessarily lead to inevitable defeat due to an inability to catch up in force size after the casualties in those defeats.
 
 
Conclusion
 
"Two qualities are indispensable: first, an intellect that, even in the darkest hour, retains some glimmerings of the inner light which leads to truth; and second, the courage to follow this faint light wherever it may lead."
- Carl von Clauzewitz
 
Ashes of the Singularity is in the unique position of creating the largest real time strategy sandbox ever. However, because of that fact, it is vitally important that the strategic layer of the game is actually interesting. If it isn't interesting, then the shiny special effects of watching two blobs destroy each other is going to get very old, very quickly.
 
To make a strategically interesting strategy layer, Ashes of the Singularity needs to significantly build out its defender's advantage, mobility warfare, artillery, air support as support instead of another flavor of combat unit, intelligence, and deception. 
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Reply #1 Top

To make a strategically interesting strategy layer, Ashes of the Singularity needs to significantly build out its defender's advantage, mobility warfare, artillery, air support as support instead of another flavor of combat unit, intelligence, and deception. 

You've made some interesting observations. I'm not sure how they're all supposed to relate to Ashes however.

Orbitals provide an interesting and - used wisely - decisive advantage for the shrewd player across several of the areas you mention.
For fire support: an orbital strike can be used to break up a large formation.
Fire support and positional advantage: Place artillery on high plateaus at choke points.
Defender's advantage: Orbital strike can be countered by an orbital nullifier. Assaulting a well prepared line of smarties and AA is challenging.
Mobility: Grouping units into armies lowers the speed of the whole to the slowest unit. Better to rush T1 units ahead or plod along with the T3?

These are just a few examples off the top of my head. Can you be more specific how you think Ashes is not providing enough strategic interest in the areas you call out? For example: "Air units have no restrictions to flight time, making them unassailable except for the right AA units."

Finally, Ashes depicts warfare in the future. Technology changes the nature of war continuously. Contrast WWI's defensive trench warfare with the blitzkrieg of WWII. 

Reply #2 Top

Mobility is about more than the movement speed of the group. Mobility is about projecting power, meaning your threat area is larger and forcing the enemy to defend a larger area against a smaller, more mobile force. In the ideal case, this means the enemy is forced to spread their forces to cover too large an area, meaning they are unable to stop a focused attack in one place. In this situation, there is no way for the defender to win because putting enough defenses to stop the enemy force will leave holes that the more mobile force can drive right through, but spreading evenly will mean the defender is unable to actually stop them.

But this isn't what happens- as you say, the question is whether you add your T1 and/or T3 units to your army so they will all fight at once. Not where and how to deploy small forces to gain the most options for attacking enemy targets, while also being able to adapt to enemy threats against your own areas to the greatest possible extent.

 

The main cause is that practically everything in Ashes is a combat unit. There are no soft, rear echelon units, logistics, support, or whatever that can be easily destroyed if the enemy slips past the front lines. Strategic AA, extreme long-range artillery, air staging bases, supply lines, there's just nothing to kill behind the lines, and therefore no need to even have a front line at all. There's nothing to be gained by flanking or encircling the enemy, it just changes the direction you are going to attack from. The only practical target is to attack the enemy's army itself. Consequently, it makes sense to field all your forces in huge groups to avoid being outmatched and defeated in a huge battle.

Put another way, the main battle going on should look more like this, with many discrete formations forming a front line with controlled territory and support assets protected behind that line, and less like one giant army engaging one other giant army. If you have X units and 20 areas of interest, it should be optimal to have 5% of your units in each area (with variation), and not all of your units in one spot. As more units are produced, the scale of the conflict escalates across the board, from light skirmishing and maneuvering, to a long series of limited engagements, until eventually one side decides to commit to a massive pitched battle, either from a perceived opportunity or out of desperation.

 

As for planes in Ashes, they are really just another flavor of combat unit. They fly, move a bit faster, and are attacked by AA units, but they can loiter overhead forever and engage and destroy an entire enemy army just like you might engage with ground combat units.

Suppose air units had a payload of bombs or missiles and needed to return to base. This creates a strategic target on the ground- the airbase- and also imposes a limitation on planes that makes it more difficult to deep strike, since you are going to be flying back and forth over hostile territory, rather than only needing to get behind once. Suppose air units, possibly except for scout aircraft, couldn't spot ground targets, and needed a ground unit to find a target for it to bomb or to fire a missile. Probing forward with ground units to find the enemy and then calling on air support becomes the way to use planes, instead of planes being a fully independent free-roaming combat force that just so happens to fly.

 

I absolutely agree that Ashes is in the far future so this isn't a question of realism or lore. It's a question of gameplay, which the lore is used to explain.

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Reply #3 Top

A few observations:

  1. Supply lines exist in the game. If your power generators are not connected to your Nexus you don't collect income from those resources.
  2. Turinium generators are fixed points critical to success. You can pin down defenders at these locations or encircle them to cut them off from aid.
  3. Engineers are the rear echelon non-combat unit you describe.
  4. Killing enemy buildings in the rear can be decisive.

I'm curious to read other folks' observations about your comments.

Quoting ledarsi, reply 2

Put another way, the main battle going on should look more like this, with many discrete formations forming a front line with controlled territory and support assets protected behind that line, and less like one giant army engaging one other giant army. If you have X units and 20 areas of interest, it should be optimal to have 5% of your units in each area (with variation), and not all of your units in one spot. As more units are produced, the scale of the conflict escalates across the board, from light skirmishing and maneuvering, to a long series of limited engagements, until eventually one side decides to commit to a massive pitched battle, either from a perceived opportunity or out of desperation.

I've had battles more like you describe. I think the largest maps lend themselves to multiple smaller formations. Perhaps try a 6 player map with just two players?
 
-Adrian
Reply #4 Top

I think I get the gist of what he is saying and I agree.  Part of the problem IMO is the army system which gives incentives for turning multiple units into a mega unit.  This mega unit then acts as one big unit.  I cant select say the dread snipers in my army and have them focus down a dread while having my brutes focus down the capacitors.  At the moment everything is kinda blob warfare. I think that it is cool and all but personally it fits better in something like SOASE which is more aking to a 4XRTS.  The fixed nexus and ability to only have one also makes it so you know where you opponents main base is where most of his defenses HAVE to be.  There is no sneaky base building as if you decide to abandon your main you lose due to not defending your nexus.  The commanders in supcom/bases in starcraft are good in my mind because they are either mobile or you can build multiple of them.  Also the nexus is the only way to get more engineers (besides calldowns which makes maintaining forward bases annoying as you have to send engineers from your main to every new node you capture.

I can't put my finger on what is missing atm but currently I just don't feel like I have the strategic options/choices I would like.  The orbitals are cool but I don't think are the end-all be all of strategic choice.  I honestly don't feel as if I have much control over the outcome of a battle besides having more units in my composition and using call-downs/abilities.  I feel that the best option is usually just to blob all of my units into an army and A-move toward the nexus.  

Comparing to SupCom again, I could use transports to try and build a sneaky base behind enemy lines/build a stealth field generator and ferry units in/build artillery/build a sneaky tactical missile base/rush nukes/get mini commanders which could teleport in and be used as self destruct suicide bombers/rush experimentals/turtle up with shields/tech up air to try and get gunships/strat bombers (much more investment than rushing bombers in Ashes atm due to only one tech level of air).  

Information warfare was also HUGE as you could build the stealth generators, 3 tiers of radar which showed you each individual grayed out unit and you could then guess what unit it was and plan accordingly including focusing your artillery units/structures to fire on what you assume to be a power generator or some other important structure.  Maybe for ashes have a t2/t3 radar which changes the red blobs into red dots which are target-able. You even had spy planes. I really liked the tactical missiles in both silo form and when on units as they were insanely powerful but easily countered.  This risk/reward was awesome.  Also the shields/artillery/some units using energy was a good thing as it placed additional value on defending/destroying economy.  Artillery was extremely powerful but if your opponent got a strat bomber into your energy line and they were all connected say bye bye to energy and by extension firing your arty.  Nukes were extremely powerful (and I'm dont necessarily think Ashes needs them) but easily countered if scouted as Anti-nuke was faster/cheaper to build.  Once again risk/reward.

A big part of my frustration is still the UI which although it has improved tremendously recently needs a good amount of work still.  I still find myself fighting the UI and having to zoom in to drag patrol points.  I want to know the individual health of groups of units in an army but I can't see it except by pressing alt and even that doesn't show each individual unit, only the "group" health in which they are produced.  I want to be able to click on the units in the little display that shows the composition of my army and give targeting commands to specific sub-groups like snipers/AA etc but I can't. The screen that shows which units I have selected isn't there unless they are in an army. (the empire tree kinda works but it isn't a good enough replacement for the normal panel which shows selected units and such.)  When trying to select all of my fighters I have to try and double click one while they are flying, I cant just select one and press ctrl-z to select all similar.

I really don't think that having armies in addition to control groups is necessary and honestly it is infuriating when I create an army and all the units move and converge to a central point before moving where I want them.  It also makes is super annoying to add new units in (without using the remote build commands)

Another problem I face is that I feel like I cap out tech wise relatively fast (dreads not included although they still come relatively fast compared to things like Krogoth or Experimentals and don't have quite the same impact)  There is one tier of extractor and then the node upgrade.  That is it as far as econ management goes.  Compared to Sup-Com where you can get more points/upgrade existing points/use adjacency bonus's/convert energy into metal/reclaim wreckage etc.  Defenses/bases really don't feel fleshed out too much and I would like to see higher tier defenses available for turtling players.  I also feel as if there is only one tech path factory>air factory>armory>dread launch.  In TA we had Kbot factory/Vehicle factory/air factory/naval factory >kbot 2/vehicle 2/air 2/naval 2 > gantry possibly with each giving you access to not only more/better units but also new engineers.  It was a big investment to get an advanced air factory and doing so would mean you're not getting an advanced vehicle factory/kbot factory for a while.  

Air is in a better place than it used to be but I still get so mad when a single bomber squad (3 bombers) comes in to my base which has multiple AA defenses and takes out all my engineers in one hit and my extractors in one hit before my AA can do enough damage.  I think that there should be multiple tiers of bombers and the t1 bombers should do decent damage but be incredibly weak HP wise so that they can be used to punish players who build no AA but are easily countered.  Then higher level bombers could add additional HP.

 I kind of rambled on here but I guess I just feel as though I don't have the strategic variety that personally should come with such a massive scale game.   The tech in undeniably cool but I feel that currently the actual game-play isn't satisfying enough.  I like to base-build and play a relatively turtle style while slowly pushing out and using quick strikes if I note a deficiency in the enemy defense.  I don't feel that this style is viable at all at the moment as the enemy can just expand more and thus get a bigger blob which will run over my defenses.  In something like SupCom or TA I could turtle and upgrade my extractors/convert energy into metal in order to improve my econ while still defending.  In starcraft I can invest in more workers which improves my econ or as terran drop in mules.  Here I plateau my econ with just a couple extractors and a node bonus unless I expand.  I have no doubt that in a few years Ashes could be the best RTS ever (especially with naval/more units/more buildings/ enhanced UI/modding) but right now I just don't see the depth.  I've been trying to love it as I founded early and really believe in the vision of Ashes but I just can't bring myself to play it as much as I want due to what I feel is a lack of strategic variety.

Holy crap /end rant..  sorry if I am being harsh/drawing too many comparisons to other games/etc.  I know that many of my points may not be clear so if need be I will try to expand upon them/clarify them.  I just started writing and kept on rambling as I really do want Ashes to succeed and be THE next RTS.  I see where Ledarsi was coming from with this thread.