RTSguru Chats with Stardock’s Derek Paxton about Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes

RTSguru.com has an interview up with Stardock’s Derek Paxton about the recently announced Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes.

“First, let’s get this out in the open.  An expansion isn’t just about additions, sometimes it’s about strategic cuts and changes to make the game better too.  With that in mind, LH will be cutting “Influence” from the main game as a form of resource, with the idea that this will actually make Gold matter more in the overall empire building aspect of Elemental.  The second major cut is in the form of damage types.  Previously, in combat players had to remember a lot of different damage types going into combat and what worked on what, an so forth.  Both Stardock and its players found this confusing, and as such they’re cutting damage types from the game and replacing them with weapons that have different abilities.  Axes will have Cleave, Warriors might have Crushing Blow, and so forth. This way the game’s combat will be less about figuring the numbers out, and more about having the right army for the job.”

Read the full interview at RTSguru!

http://www.rtsguru.com/game/460/article/5164/Delving-the-Depths-of-Fallen-Enchantress-Legendary-Heroes.html

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55,231 views 25 replies
Reply #1 Top


The second major cut is in the form of damage types.  Previously, in combat players had to remember a lot of different damage types going into combat and what worked on what, an so forth.  Both Stardock and its players found this confusing, and as such they’re cutting damage types from the game and replacing them with weapons that have different abilities.  Axes will have Cleave, Warriors might have Crushing Blow, and so forth. This way the game’s combat will be less about figuring the numbers out, and more about having the right army for the job.”

And so the DUMBING down of the game begins.

Reply #2 Top

Hooray for more Faction Traits =D (love the sandbox aspect and the customization)

Reply #3 Top

Quoting willie, reply 1

And so the DUMBING down of the game begins.

Dumbing down...?

So a greater spectrum of tactical and strategical decisions and less passives = less complex?  I think you may need to consult your dictionary, as you really mean to say "Smarting up".

 

Reply #4 Top

He thinks eliminating a vestigial component like slashing resistance is dumbing down.  Even though it was a mechanic that was mostly ignored and didn't fit in with the mostly 1 armor set per tier in the tech tree.  

Reply #5 Top

Quoting Lord, reply 5
He thinks eliminating a vestigial component like slashing resistance is dumbing down.  Even though it was a mechanic that was mostly ignored and didn't fit in with the mostly 1 armor set per tier in the tech tree.  

I agree here, the only problem I had with the earlier damage system was actually the lack of "counters" (armour sets) more than the mechanics.
Then again, thats me being a number nut. I cannot wait to see what they offer as abilities, because that will probably make up for it.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #6 Top

What's ironic is that at one time, I pushed for 3 radically different damage types: Mundane, Arcane and Elemental with corresponding types of protectiosn against them.  Was great on paper. Absolutely sucked in practice.  Worked fine in GalCiv but here it was just amazingly tedious.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 7
What's ironic is that at one time, I pushed for 3 radically different damage types: Mundane, Arcane and Elemental with corresponding types of protectiosn against them.  Was great on paper. Absolutely sucked in practice.  Worked fine in GalCiv but here it was just amazingly tedious.

We also have 6 + 2 damage types in elemental.

Blunt, Piercing, Cutting.
Fire, Ice, Lightning.
Poison, Whatever doesn't fit into the other columns.

I still hope for traits (for trained units) that gives some amount of protection against fire or ice, so I can more easily design a unit against fire troops, without having to spend hundreds of crystals on my army.

(and deep inside, I hope magic staves will start using spell mastery and spell resistance ;)).

But alas, It might be a good change to remove the damage types, I just like the idea behind constructing some units behind countering the enemy swordsmen, etc. So I hope we retain that in some other form.
If we have that, I could care less about damage types such as piercing, as I do see the difficulty in showing this easily and accessibly through the UI.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #8 Top

Me thinks the successes of X-COM mayth opened the eyes of Stardock!  At least a tiny bit, this is not a combat simulator.

 

Quoting willie, reply 1
And so the DUMBING down of the game begins.

 

Damage categories math is an archaic relic of PnP days because player options are a bit limited.  Look, what is more fun?  Do you like having the choice of getting that 100% aim bonus for your sniper rifle at the cost of waiting one turn or attack now instead?  Or in other words, do find enjoyment in victory being mostly predetermined before the fighting commences based on stat modifiers or because you made smart, bold decisions as the unit commander, as the player?

 

Now playing devils advocate, the counter argument is those stat modifiers in FE were special weapon abilities that enhanced gameplay such as the counter attack on (preequipped) swords.  That is true but in the end you are still fighting a mostly predetermined battle and that is what the devs openly explained the vision to be, just not in those exact words per se.

 

I just hope the devs hit the right design balance on tactical implementation.  If good tactical play turns out to be too repetitive and essential or game breaking then the minigame get re-visioned closer to FE.  If too optional then a lot of people are very disappointed.  Unless some very clever solutions like allowing only hero armies tactical combat (less is more) then it could be difficult to make things work to their fullest potential. 

Reply #9 Top

I remember those types from GC II and when you would see ships coming loaded up with beams or whatnot, you would have to start planning your strategy a bit different, not to mention if you didnt adapt to how the AI did to your wps, that could hurt as well.  Was a great system for GC, but I bet it wouldnt work so well for FE, like Lord Frog said above.  Rock, paper, scissors isnt always the best way at times.

Reply #10 Top

Quoting RogueCaptain, reply 9
Damage categories math is an archaic relic of PnP days because player options are a bit limited... Or in other words, do find enjoyment in victory being mostly predetermined before the fighting commences based on stat modifiers or because you made smart, bold decisions as the unit commander, as the player? ...

PnP and limited options? PnP basically lets players do whatever they want. It's more or less for gameplay and thematic reasons.

Just try to penetrate plate armor with a sword. Now attack that same plate armor with a poleaxe, mace, or warhammer. It's a pretty dramatic difference... And oddly inverted in Fallen Enchantress.

The entire appeal of reducing "victory being mostly predetermined" is a false premise to me. As is the premise that preparation is somehow contrary to making "smart, bold decisions."

I'm guessing any decently experienced player has found ways around the physical damage types of FE at some point of play. Compensating for such inequities can lead to interesting alternative tactical approaches, or phrased differently necessitate "smart, bold decisions." (I'm guessing many just burned them with fire... Literally. Fireball is pretty awesome.)

The playing field being fundamentally unequal on engagement is a natural consequence of general logistics in warfare. Damage types are really a pretty small part of the big picture in "predetermination."

I'll miss damage types. It opened the possibility of overly specializing against one enemy army to find yourself at a disadvantage against a differing faction. Some of the roaming monsters (such as Golems, or Stormworld's "Kami") also made this interesting.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting IlluminaZero, reply 11
I'll miss damage types. It opened the possibility of overly specializing against one enemy army to find yourself at a disadvantage against a differing faction

My problem is, you couldn't really specialize against a certain damage type, because there were no proper armours for the job...

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #12 Top

Quoting Kongdej, reply 12

My problem is, you couldn't really specialize against a certain damage type, because there were no proper armours for the job...

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

I take it you are referring to elemental (crystal costs) + pierce damage? The chain (slash) and plate (blunt) is pretty straightforward, though illogical(plate).

I never really saw this as an overly debilitating issue due to the many alternative damage types. All it really meant is that one damage source out of 7 wasn't optimal. It certainly helps that spears are awesome, bypass armor, and have pierce damage.

In reflection, I would find it funny/odd/depressing if one of the motivators for removing damage types was simply making spears less prominent. Spear troops were my B&B, and due to armor penetration spear troops were the most significant threat to my Path of Defender Champions/Sovereigns and general armored troops.

It also didn't bother me as frankly, swords are IRL joke weapons when used against such things as Plate Armor.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting IlluminaZero, reply 13
I take it you are referring to elemental (crystal costs) + pierce damage? The chain (slash) and plate (blunt) is pretty straightforward, though illogical(plate).

What? no...

I am referring to the amount of tech needed for plate armour for one, and plate armour is still as good vs cutting than chain armour is, so there is little point in using chain amours.

and besides that, my games rarely get to the "platemail" part of the game, I focus too much on the wars.

I think that there should be added more armours so at the technology level of leather you could specialize some of your defense points against blunt/cutting  or piercing (it pains me there is no counters against piercing), and similar, there should be better armours at the level of chainmail, which would counter each type of damage type.

Instead of adding the choice of damage types though, we see the choice being taken away.

I always have too much metal anyhoo, guess its my metal luck, never enough crystal, always too much metal, so I always go all out plate for the sake of it, when I reach that part of lategame when platearmour is available... Usually after I have been in several wars.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Kongdej, reply 14
What? no...

I am referring to the amount of tech needed for plate armour for one, and plate armour is still as good vs cutting than chain armour is, so there is little point in using chain amours.

and besides that, my games rarely get to the "platemail" part of the game, I focus too much on the wars.

I think that there should be added more armours so at the technology level of leather you could specialize some of your defense points against blunt/cutting  or piercing (it pains me there is no counters against piercing), and similar, there should be better armours at the level of chainmail, which would counter each type of damage type.

Instead of adding the choice of damage types though, we see the choice being taken away.

I always have too much metal anyhoo, guess its my metal luck, never enough crystal, always too much metal, so I always go all out plate for the sake of it, when I reach that part of lategame when platearmour is available... Usually after I have been in several wars.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

That's true. Even in formats that are intentionally designed to go on long, I found that I had (essentially) won long before 3rd tier armor was even unlocked.

Lack of pierce damage resistance doesn't really bother me... With the exception of monsters like Golems that is. In Mount and Blade for example Blunt + Pierce damage are purely superior to Slash damage, however they compensate it by giving them less absolute damage. This makes slash superior against weakly armored troops and blunt/pierce more effective against heavily armored troops. (As it should be).

I don't really think of Plate as a 3rd tier armor as I had always taken the "Light Plate" trait and paired it with "Master Chain." This was primarily motivated by the fact that Plate offers more mobility than chain mail. Plate is also much easier to make too. This should make sense if you really look at what they are: Interlocked metal slabs versus hundreds of linked rings.

While it makes perfect sense for plate to be higher on the tech tree, the weight difference bugged me enough to take both armor traits anyways. On reflection this was almost purely a nerf, as Slash damage is much more prominent than Blunt damage. Hammer style weapons had such severe initiative penalties that I found their troops to be a bit of a joke when I stacked Slow and hasted my troops to exacerbate the speed difference.

Reply #15 Top


Well for me it's like saying "any" weapon could kill a vampire or a werewolf now whereas the old way you would have needed a "piercing wooded" weapon for vampires and a "silver piercing or slashing" to kill a werewolf. These are just basic examples. But, different damage type would have more or less quality based on armor hit as well as creature types. Now with dumbing down you just pick your weapon of choice some area axe that hits 3 targets at once or some other silly crap sword or spear. That's dumbing it down in the worst way. Whatever happened to havinging to THINK about your army makeup and reinforcing it with things you might need later on? Too many casual nintendo game genie types playing games these days wanting the "easy" and less "complex" games anymore. THey'd rather play a candyland game than something that actually makes them use their brains.

Reply #16 Top

Removing tediousness is good. Look at X-Com re-imagined, they took out weapon magazines and everyone objected at first but almost everyone was happy with the change. Overall they removed a lot of tediousness from the original xcom and the game is great fun to play. You just get into the nitty gritty and have a great time.

Real life in game does not equal fun gameplay. Real life is tedious, I don't play games to experience real life :)

Reply #17 Top

I don't like the new X-Com either. Having to manually change magazines is realistic and can be the difference between life and death sometimes. Neverending ammo is childsplay and something one would get from as I said it...GAME GENIE GOD MODE!

Reply #18 Top


Making some comments as I look through the article.  Saying the weapons were replaced with ones with different abiltiies is inaccurate; the weapon abilities already vary both by type standards, and with some individual variation.

To my eye; the problem with the weapon system wasn't so much the hard to tell number; but UI flaws:  while the first number ni your armor was piercing defense; that was never explicitly said, so people didn't know what their pierce defense was.  Second; the effects of armor were never made clear within the game itself in any place I know of.  This made it hard to figure out how much armor was going to reduce yoru damage; especially with some of the weird rounding effects: since it always rounded down; a 4 damage weapon vs a 5 armor target (a common occurence if you make a 4 damage militia vs any unit that has no defense; it'll have 5 when it defends);  you do 0-1 damage in that case; the formula comes up with iirc 4/9 * 4 = 16/9; soo 8/9 to 16/9 damage; so it gets 0-1 after using the always round down system.

Until I read the armor system on the forum I had trouble figuring out how armor works; this again is a failure in the ui rather than a failure of the damage system; a clear UI with appropriate tooltips would have made this all entirely clear to all the users.  Also I concur with others points that there's a lack of armor choicse in fe that really let you itemize against certain damage types; and the weapon selectyion is a little thin due to too many of the weapon abilities being too weak. 

 

Hero changes sound promising; but hard to tell in practice;  having a fleshed out tree is certainly useful; the only question is whether it will allow for enough variability in gameplay to be interesting; or if things will too readily devolve into giving the same heroes the same build over and over again.

This reminds me of one of the fundamental flaws with a game called Battle Dex; an online ccg/ tactical war game.  There you hads 12 cards; and all were available from the start to play.  While it's nice having accses to all your cards; it makes the game play very similar from game to game as long as you use hte same deck.  While things may play out somewhat differently depending on map and what your opponent does; there's still a strong sense of similarity from game to game; especially as a number of cards are things that are equivalent to low-cost summons.  This means that you may use half your cards up before you even see the enemy; and having a standard open like that means there's a lot less choicse to be made. 

I think there will be enough variability with found items or game considerations changing what you do; or just having enough heroes, but it's something to keep an eye on.  Another example is Vow of Poverty in d&d 3.5; which gives mad bonuses but means you can't use any magic items, and barely any mundane ones.  While it's effective; sometimes people remark on it being boring as you know EXACTLY what your char is gonna look like as they level up

 

Other stuff sounds promising, as long as its' well balanced, which should be rather feasible.  Will weapon abilities change in the base game to match the new system at all, or receive other changes to fix the current balance issues with them?

 

Reply #19 Top

Yeah, it's one thing to say "people never worried about the damage types".  But it's quite another thing to say "they didn't worry about the damage types because the UI wasn't clear and the way damage worked in the game wasn't explained well".

Reply #20 Top

is it only me, but I love the idea of prestige in game/influence) to use to gouge and persuade AIs....

Reply #21 Top

Don't they mean the prestige for working out how fast all your cities grow?  ie.  Prestige/No. of cities = Growth of each city (unless no more food for that city).  I'm pretty sure that's what they mean, and influence is still in.  But I could be wrong, you never know. :-)

Reply #22 Top

I believe that Kael said that both Prestige and Influence were going in LH.  That's a real shame in my view because I think both of these are great concepts.    :-(

Reply #23 Top

Quoting willie, reply 18
I don't like the new X-Com either. Having to manually change magazines is realistic and can be the difference between life and death sometimes. Neverending ammo is childsplay and something one would get from as I said it...GAME GENIE GOD MODE!

You cry about about weapon choice and then mention xcom: classic?  The game where for 80% of it you use nothing BUT laser rifles if you have your head screwed on straight?  You know... the weapon with the best LR accy, no ammo and a nice fast snap.  Plasma were for selling.  You might have a blaster bomb, or maybe an explosive... overall in that game ammo management was a laughably tedious "awake check" aka were you awake enough to reload everyone up to max before every mission.

Also... in classic fantasy decapitation and sunlight were far better than a stake or a silver bullet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyway, moving away from that, I like the Unrest thing for more cities, but I will miss prestige and influence, but I can see that making things more gold based will lower city and rushprod spamming.  If it is set up right it will be  much more interesting balancing act between few and many cities with the new foody things.

Reply #24 Top

Quoting VermillionChaos, reply 24



Quoting willie sanderson,
reply 18
I don't like the new X-Com either. Having to manually change magazines is realistic and can be the difference between life and death sometimes. Neverending ammo is childsplay and something one would get from as I said it...GAME GENIE GOD MODE!


You cry about about weapon choice and then mention xcom: classic?  The game where for 80% of it you use nothing BUT laser rifles if you have your head screwed on straight?  You know... the weapon with the best LR accy, no ammo and a nice fast snap.  Plasma were for selling.  You might have a blaster bomb, or maybe an explosive... overall in that game ammo management was a laughably tedious "awake check" aka were you awake enough to reload everyone up to max before every mission.

Also... in classic fantasy decapitation and sunlight were far better than a stake or a silver bullet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyway, moving away from that, I like the Unrest thing for more cities, but I will miss prestige and influence, but I can see that making things more gold based will lower city and rushprod spamming.  If it is set up right it will be  much more interesting balancing act between few and many cities with the new foody things.

No I did NOT mention X-Com (CLASSIC) I just said I don't like X-Com and there are MANY versions of X-Com and I was referring to the latest one. If you had any sense you would have realized that. So, don't bring up anything else about what I say unless YOU have the FACTS straight....thank you very much ;)

Also in classic fantasy you didn't always have the sunlight at the flick of a finger like a lightswitch and decapitation was rare. Wooden Stakes and Silver Bullers are the most common destructive methods of lore. Read some books , watch some movies get with the program. ;) Oh and not this modern day love story crap where vampires mate with werewolves....how ridiculous.

Reply #25 Top

I'd like to see him retained for GalCiv3.  I think there's some good lore in that game (better than Elemental for the most part), but it would benefit from some further imagining.