Quoting ARESIV, reply 258
A smart human execution takes arround 1.5 seconds. There is not remotly enough time to save anything, this is the reason it was nerfed.
Again.... the Titan first is brought into alignment and then it micro jumps and triggers Maw.
Smart human execution is to move your ships the moment Vorastra enters the gravity well. There is enough time to do that, while the titan does its realignment.
And OFC you do the alignment before using MPJ, however you cant do it 100 percent perfect if the targets are in motion. The frigates can move so fast across the front of the titan that it will lose that alignment that half second you move the cursor to click the target...
Finally, the reason it was nerfed was clearly the whining of the MP community. If the devs felt it was OP themselves, they would have nerfed it long time ago, perhaps even before the release last year.
Yes, a frigate moves faster than the Vorastra turns.... ON CLOSE DISTANCE
When the Vorastra enters the gravity well... it is likely far away from your fleet. In which case its turn rate is more than enough to compensate for your fleet movement.
It was OP and if you would play not against AI but against a human enemy, you would realize that as well.
I told you before you lot wont be happy until Vasari are nerfed to hell.
Thats because they are OP. Have been since first Beta. And now, since the devs - thankfully 
- nerfed the INCREDIBLE OP things down to bearable levels, we can and should focus on the things that are just OP. And Phase Missiles are OP. Especially against Advent.
Real time strategy games should be balanced to PvP play and modded to your personal preference.
QFT
Oh and btw the hard nerf of wail is another exaggeration, made that useless too like the maw, so now AR may be even weaker than AL, have anyone tested it? what are your thought on this comparison of the Advent factions in this beta?
Wail is pretty much worthless now, the damage dealt does never justify going into 7 Harmony.... or sacrificing a planet for that matter.
How the new Wail values in Beta 2 will be in game remains to be seen. Although they sound good on paper so far.
inability to effectively kill enemy structures namely starbases..
Phase Missile bomber wings easily are better than any anti structure cruiser. Not only the do more effective damage and are harder to counter, but they also are MURDEROUS against many other things... while Anti Structure cruisers only work against structures.
i will bring up the rock paper scissors argument for this (TEC>VASARI>ADVENT>TEC)
There are 2 big flaws in your theory.
First of all... the Vasari are more powerful than the TEC military wise. So it would be actually
Vasari > TEC < Advent < Vasari
Or more obvious:
Military power ranking:
1. Vasari
2. Advent
3. TEC
Economic Power rating:
1. TEC
2. Vasari!!!!!
3. Advent
Advent vs TEC is 2. Military vs 3. Military.. which is mostly balanced by
TEC being 1. in Economy... and Advent being 3.
Now.... to the Vasari:
Second in Economy.... yes... Vasari Economy is much stronger than Advent economy..... BUT FIRST in military.....
1. in military + 2. in economy = STRONGER than 2. in military and 3. in economy.
Obvious, right?
And for Vasari vs Advent Late game... we dont speak about a minor advantage here... we speak about an execution of the Advent.
Second flaw:
The Advent are balanced against the TEC by economy alone..... TEC can fight a multi front line war, which will lower the advent synergies down to bearable levels and inflict losses that the Advent cannot afford to replace. TEC has the economy to accept a loss ratio of 2 : 1...... they will win in the end.
Against Vasari however, Advent have NOTHING. Vasari have a better military.... and will kill Advent ships easily in ratios up to 3 : 1.
However. Advent economy IS WAY MORE BAD than Vasari Economy.... yes... Advent looses 3 ships, Vasari loose 1. Advent has to spend more money on losses than vasari.... Vasari fleet can steamroll spam Advent like TEC..... but is even superior on even or lower numbers.
The Vasari can defeat the advent military wise and can outlast them economic wise. There is nothing Advent can do against a Vasari in late game.
A faction.... the Advent here...... that can only hope to defeat TEC in late game... is not balanced.
Or to put it simply:
Enemies in the field:
TEC
Vasari
Advent
Victory changes:
Choose TEC: Spam both Advent and Vasari - to some lesser extent - to death.
Choose Vasari: CRUSH Advent and defeat TEC...... you have enough military power to crush Advent and enough economic staying power to avoid being spammed to death by TEC.
Choose Advent: Defeat TEC with superior military..... but prepare for a hard fight as he will outnumber you 2 to 1. Forget ANY changes of defeating the Vasari..... if he makes it to late game... YOU ARE DEAD.
So why should anyone - from a competive standpoint - choose Advent?
another thing is you should expect the vasari to be better in the military department like they are. the other 2 races are specialized in different ways. the ADVENT are evil with culture and there abilities are the best in the game (repulsion being the easiest example) and TEC are economy and brute force. like i said. VAS are the supreme military but are lacking in these other departments.
I am fine with Vasari being second in military... but not first. They have the second best economy.... they cannot have first in military with this.
The main issue is, the vasari were meant as a more gurellia style faction.....unfortunatly.... they have all the DIRTY tricks AND the best military.... Vasari dont need to fight dirty to win..... but if they do... they are nearly unstoppable.
They are an gurellia faction... with the firepower of a brute force faction..... and that is nuff said what makes them OP.
Imho Balancing should be like this:
TEC: Worst military... but tons of units..... and thick armor... we will spam you to death and outlast you.
Advent: Best military but pathetic eco...... not so much units but once in full synergy capable of inflicting losses on a terrible scale.
Vasari: Second best military, but NO MATCH for the Advent in brute power (currently they are). Vasari need to fight more of a gurellia warfare to succeed instead of skilllessly steamrolling everything.
there (Advent) abilities are the best in the game
I disagree. While being very powerful in full synergie they also highly depend on that synergie. Remove just a bit of this synergy, and Advent might breaks down like a cardhouse.
Some may see it as flaw, that Vasari ships mostly support only themselves.... but actually it is a strenght. Advent fleet loosing 2 capitalships? Battle performance for Advent goes down 50 %. Vasari fleet loosing 2 Capital ships? Battle performance for Vasari going down by 10 %.
Guess who wins.
Especially with Phase Missile bombers..... yes... those again..... Advent dont have any capitalships after a minute or so.... because they DIE INSTANTLY against even a mid sized bomber swarm.
No, you just got some of the nerfs you asked for and before even trying the game out to see how they pan out, you already complained they are not enough. Do you even wonder Yarlen refused to nerf phase missiles/bombers so far? Why should he? You did not even bother to play the game before doing judgments, thats hardly makes you trustworthy, when it comes to game balance. It only confirms your bias against Vasari.
The reality is, that the Phase Missile in their current form make the Advent obsolete in late game. They are so incredible OP, that any other of the - good changes - for Vasari wont be enough to give the Advent a fighting change.
As long as Vasari can destroy a level 10 Advent Titan in under a minute!
As long, as high level capships die within seconds....
As long as this is true... the Advent will be no match for the Vasari.
Now... buffing the Advent economy is a terrible idea. It would make Advent OP against TEC.
So the only way to reasonably balance this, is to remove the military superiority of the Vasari.
Or nerf the Vasari economy down to levels that will make any Advent player rich in comparsion. But that idea has several more flaws.
In my opinion Goa, its a great titan, but just can't kill much without dying. The antimatter/cooldown should be implemented with the HP so as to not make it an Eradica mkII, but be able to utilize its powerful abilities more often.
Actually the Coronate is very powerful..... it just happens to be weak against bomber swarms, which happen to be the prefferred late game tactic. Add that none of its abilitys does large ammounts of damage to frigate swarms and you have the issue.
The Coronate with a large fleet of illuminators is awesome.... Illuminators destroy the enemy fleet while the Coronata deal with the hard targets (Starbase, Titan, Capitalship) the illuminators suck against.
It isnt as easy as bomber spam though.
Well, you might be playing TEC, but you clearly want to be Advent player. The reason you never played online for Advent is your fear of losing, not balance concerns. In short, you rather win than play for your race of choice, congrats.
And btw, how can you know, you would get beaten against Vasari as Advent, when you never tried it yourself online? Would it not be wise to try it out before complaining?
You said it yourself... fear of losing...... fear of losing against an enemy that DOES EVERYTHING IMPORTANT BETTER THAN THE ADVENT.
As for trying... believe me..... I got my ass handed often enough by Vasari..... and I handed enough Advent their ass AS Vasari. A while ago.... me.... 50 games.... Vasari.... other guy... 120 games.... Advent....
Guess who won?
ME
And not by skill... for sure.
I also have a theory about you....
You love Vasari.... and you love them because they are OP.
And so you cannot stand any nerfs to them, because it might force you to rely on skill instead of dirty OP tricks of the faction.
I honestly don't think the issue is the PM techs (other than the VR ones)...the real issues are the base damage of Vasari bombers and lack of unique Advent protection against them (a wimpy culture bonus is not adequate)...
Yes.... if the Advent shields had a high PM block value outside of culture (mind you, the current in culture block is worthless) things would change.
I really think... or rather hope, that Phase Missiles were meant by the developers as more like a bonus. The basic idea being, that by the time you drop shields you have already done SOME hull damage.
In their current implementation and power levels however, it is not an uncommon sight to see Advent ships die with over 10000 shield points remaining. That cannot be allowed for obvious balancing reasons. Phase missiles are not a bonus... they dont slightly mitigate shields... they pass right trough them.... making shields OBSOLETE. And Advent relying 90 % on shields to survive become obsolete, too.
There is a way to kill Vorastra.
Drain it of AM but that means your drain am ships need to survive long enough.....
Excellent idea. At least if your am draining ships happen to
also the later has been become easier, now that Maw no longer instagibs entire fleets.
And why exactly should be anyone interested in what you like? And how that even concerns the balance?
Why should anyone care for the opinion of you... a player that is clearly not interested in game balancing at all, but only in keeping your beloved OP factions, OP.
It does not take 10 minute to build the Titan, thats needless exaggeration on your part. Additionally, Vorastras firepower is in line with all the other Titans, i believe the likes of Eradica and Coronata are even more powerful, when it comes to regular weapon output.
It does take a considerable time to rebuild a titan at higher levels.
And for the OFFICIAL RECORD:
The Vorastra has the HIGHEST FIREPOWER OF ALL TITANS. WITHOUT ABILITYS. IT DOES OUTGUN THE RAGNAROV. ALL ITS WEAPONS ARE FORWARD, SO IT CAN USE THAT FIREPOWER TO FULL EFFECT.
Now.... the firepower of the Vorastra is not the issue..... as in fleet battles it pales in comparsion. It was Maw and Desperation that made it unbeatable.
It is great that you like Vasari they way they are. Everyone has his favourite faction. But your fun comes at the expense of the fun for the TEC and the Advent players. Being slaughted by Vasari is not fun, nor helping to the game and future releases.
I am quite fine with Vasari having dirty tricks... but if they have those.... they need to take a stepdown in raw military power. Right now they have both....... and that breaks game balancing and makes it
NOT FUN
to play TEC or Advent against them.
Nobody likes to lose.... that a fact.... but to go down fighting and standing a change..... that is much better than the execution like gameplay that is happening at the moment in late game.
There are 3 races in this game. You love one of them. At best that gives you 33 % of the playerbase. The other 66 % (TEC/Advent), dont they have a right to enjoyment of the game, too?
If the price for making 2/3 of the playerbase happy, is the annoyance of at best 1/3 of the playerbase, it is the right choice.
Although, in reality, most Vasari players understand and agree that the faction needs some nerfs (Altough they may disagree about the hardness of those nerfs) . So you likely will piss of only 5 - 10 % of the playerbase.... while pleasing 90 % - 95 % of the rest. That an easy call.
