The only input I would give would be to make sure bonuses and weaknesses are BALLANCED!

Take for example, Gnolls from MoM.  

Horrible.  Barely any strengths, many weaknesses.  The only time I ever played them was when I wanted a challenge.

When making the race designer, place only abilities  that MATTER.

I'm pretty sure he ment take over a city and it's population stays what it is. Now considering you made your native population at your starting city, you now have a city of a different race to use and make units from, but they aren't mixed. I'd almost garantee that's the way he ment, especially since it's a lot easier to code it that way.

  From a earlier thread someone had mentioned it would be nice if the humans took over an 'elven' city, and then with time, the city wouuld eventually produce half-elves(the mix of humans an elves).  I think that poster had it right(what I would like to see also, but might not be possible).  There should be many options when 'conquering' a city.  Raze, enslave, assimulation, tension among the different races(for some), etc.  Some populations should be hard coded for not being able to interbreed(elves and orcs), some should have the option to interbreed (like humans with elves, orcs, gnolls, etc).  The reasons for this can be varried like racial enmity, some races  wanting to be 'pure', genetic disposition, magic, lore of game, etc.  So some cities would remain with the same racial make-up before and after conquering, some cities would be mixed race with diversity(units we could use also), and some cities would remove existing populations to the outskirts of the 'civilized' part of town, and some cities would get a whole new racial identity through replacing them(genocide for the inhabitants)with a completely different race or races in a current 'inventory'.  Glad were at least discussing these options.

  Another big thumbs up for Stardocks concern for their product and willingness to relook at a big picture items like this(no matter if it make it in or not).

Yeah, I'm not sure I would interpret that poll the same way. Even if I play my own custom race, I definitely want the other players' races to have interesting flavour, not just be identical stock races.

Customizing my own race is good, but I don't want to customize the AI races. I liked the mixed population in MoM. It simply makes sense. The approach of Master of Orion 1 is logical too, but killing all people on a planet (or in a city) is too cruel. Even if I were evil, I would rather turn them to slaves, so I can use them. If you conquer the city and all the people become your race - it is not only illogical, but it also makes your empire oversimplified.

And if you look at Earth, in the areas where two cultures meet (even if they fight against themselves) the population is mixed. Good example is Israel and Palestine.

Getting more tools to make more races would be nice indeed. I thought for a moment that I agreed with those saying that more AI races were indeed needed in order to flesh out the AI opponents, but I no longer think that.

How an AI responds and acts may very well be implemented in an acceptable way without having races per se. For example, ther may be two races of men where one is very much cultural and spiritual - and peaceful - while the other is highly aggressive and favors the sword more than anything else. We need not have races in order to have this distinction.

I also do not share the sentiment that races make a fantasy game. Races and such are very cool to have, but we may as well have two main races. I see not why having ten races would actually be better than two races. As long as the factions are recognisable and well thought out I care not what race they have.

In GalCivs I always created my own race.  I NEVER used the prebuilt ones.

-Phal

I saw this 'late,' but I'm glad to see several folks typing much along the lines I would have. As usual, PigeonPigeon says much that I've been thinking and does it a bit more clearly than I probably would have. I completely agree with MagicwillNZ:

I might not be exactly the same type of gamer that Mandelik describes in reply 43, but I very much share a conviction that strong, well-connected back story is invaluable for immersion, and if done extremely well it should also enhance replayability. I also fully agree with Goontrooper's list of priorities in reply 48.

Elemental could be the first game that gets me reliably interested in mods, but I am distinctly worried about how often devs seem to brush aside design ideas, including some of their own, with a Marie Antoinette-esque "let them use mods." I want the game to be a full meal in its own right. Mods are for dessert.

Im readin all yo comments but Im still confused!

People sound like they are talking about factions when they say races and that they want many factions or many races and all of them to be well devloped.

Do people mean like Gal civ where factions equal races or like in Civ where factions are 'subraces'? Or do they mean races as in dragonkin and lizardmen?

???

Also, I approve of Wintersong's avatar yet again.

I think by the end of GalCiv 2 (ToA) that the individual races finally had enough character with their own tech trees that they started to show their personality.  Before then, though, it was selecting a race for the bonuses or customizing your own that was the real driving factor.  I'd love to see some very deep history surrounding the different races/factions that would make me really want to play as them vs. just using their pre-made abilities.

Here are some ideas that might help flesh things out:

*What if you removed the ability to customize your race/faction near the end of the beta test to help improve the built-in ones specifically?  Testers would only use the built-in races to help refine/tweak them further.

*Why don't you include additional art assets and races as downloadable content later and focus on improving the experience currently with just two races?

*Once you develop the story line more and add in more content, run the above poll again.  It's hard to make a choice when there isn't much info to go on other than a picture and very brief description.

*Why can't The Fallen be good, too?  If men can be both good and evil, why not The Fallen?  It might help to explain this concept more.  It might also make it more reasonable when a Fallen city goes under the control of good men that it could/would join that new faction.

I would have to say it is great this is getting re-examined.

Yes, Brad (Stardock's owner & senior dev) has two forum handles. The hints I've seen in the old lore are that Draginol is Froboy's evil twin. Sometimes I suspect that it's really Tired & Maybe Cranky Twin, on account of most Draginol posts I see are later in the day, Michigan time.

I am really confused by this post from Stardock. And a bit exasperated.

How can we do a poll when we haven't even seen what the factions will finally be like (tech trees, faction buildings, magic, 3D graphics ...)? Just the thought that such a poll would be the basis for a game changing decision gives me vertigo.

Secondly, I don't understand what you mean with tradeoff in your post. Why can't we have the full option to customize our own races and factions, and still be presented with a few different races as basis of the game? When you speak about "resources", do you mean manpower at SD? Hope not. I thought we had agreed you were going to take the time needed on this game to get it right ... 

You know what, we are now backtracking the whole debate on whether this Fantasy game should be human only or with several races. Just consider this: a lot of players want several races. If it's more work to do the 3D or whatever, well, we are ready to wait, and then applaud the result and play Elemental forever. But not selling out on one of the pillars of the fantasy dimension just like that.

But most of all, after everything SD has said on "getting Elemental right", "taking the time we need" etc, and then seeing something disastrous like this posted like it's just a small tweak ... You know what, if you want to get this fantasy game right you'd better include some really cool fantasy races. Make no mistake, it will come back to haunt you if you just include a tickbox for custom abilities and skip the fantasy in the core game.

I am all for customization, but not at the expense of the existing factions. There is no way you will be able to "make your own orcs and elves" without reverting to serious modding, which is another debate entirely. Clicking in some plusses and minuses in a short list of racial traits is about as bad as it could get. It won't even be visible once you play.

And as for the visibility, creating a new race is not about turning the skin Avatar blue. If you want to get Elemental right, then you have to work on the existing factions in the core game, and make sure that we players love these factions. That's what the Beta should be about. And could easily be about. If you had had this poll result under Beta 5 I think you should be really worried - in fact, then I think it would be time to rework some of the factions. But today I think it is too early even to know what the factions will be like. 

I just hope there WILL be unique and fully fleshed out, ready-made factions and races to like. Since we are currently down to 5 good guys and 5 bad guys I'd say: the more the better. 

Edit: spelling error