The way I've been using balance is in the context so many people think X needs a nerf. Some things could use a boost, yes. But that's it. You're right on that part CosMoe.

To make my point more clear:

It's good that one DG is better versus some other DG, actually I think this is essential for the game (rock-paper-scissors). But the win/loss ratio is calculated form thousands of matches and its average clearly shows that certain DGs are simply worse than others. All the possible combinations of matchups are already in the average! It's not surprising that the 4 DGs with more than 50% wins are (at least for me) perceived as the more dangerous of all eight: UB, Sedna, Erebus and Oak.

Its impossible to balance 3v3s though. You just can't do it without making more imbalances and more problems. You nerf demigod A too much and demigod B isn't nerfed enough so demigod C just happens to now be better than everyone. In a roster as large as Demigod's you cannot really balance small games. This is not an issue of popularity, its an issue of logistics people are moaning about. You cannot ask GPG to "balance for 3v3s". Its not possible. The more Demigods you add the more difficult its going to be to make sure 1 3 demigod combination is not strictly better than another. Its simple not possible. You just need to build demigods that don't seem overpowered, and if they are tone them down. Dawn of War 1 had a ton of races but was that balanced? No.

My point is the game is fine right now. Some things could use a boost yes but I don't think everything needs a nerf like so many people are complaining about right now. People who are complaining about balance are PUGs and newer players. They play in games with no coordintion or organized teamwork so yeah things may seem to be overpowered when they constantly find themselves in 1v1 situations.

For the record, 5 UBs is an illegitimate team. Stacking Demigods on a 5 player match is ridiculous and should not be considered when speaking in the context of a competitive setting.

5v5s balance themselves due to the size of the game. When it comes to 3v3s its more about Demigod combination. There are more Demigods so you don't feel a Demigod's advantages over another as much in a 5v5. But answer this. Hypothetically speaking Regulus cannot beat a Queen of Thorns. So you need to make it so Regulus has a chance against Queen of Thorns. But what about the other 7 Demigods? How do you ensure the changes you made to Regulus that helps him against Queen of Thorns does not tip the balance against the other 7? This is the type of stuff people are asking for and its ridiculous. No game can accomodate that and GPG certainly cannot balance like that.

Demigod does not have serious balance issues. Somethings could use a boost but nothing is seriously "OP". Don't fix what is clearly not broken.

Not remotely.

New school games with RPG elements have characters which do have niches but are still competent on their own. So for example Regulus may not be able to kill a good Sedna 1v1, but he can still push her off a tower with a burst of damage from mines, mark, and autoattack. If you leave Reg alone with Sedna he'll tend to lose control of the lane and will probably eventually lose a tower, but he's not so weak that Sedna can just send him home the instant she hits the scene.

In some cases (now that priests are nerfed) a Regulus may even be able to OOM a Sedna if he dances back and forth keeping autoattack and mine pressure up and has a tower up to help deter her pushes. Regulus can still get plenty of HP, armor, and regen to recover from the occasional pounce so long as he plays well enough to not get pounced every cooldown. Priests are especially helpful for that. In fact once priests hit the field reg's AoE capacity can let him push Sedna back to her own tower during those brief periods when the lane fills up with friendly reinforcements.

All that in spite of the fact that 1v1 regulus shouldn't be beating Sedna.

An old school game is roshambo. You see this in Everquest, early WoW (and late wow depending on your perspective and the patch number), and a number of other RPG games and aspects of RTSs.

Polynomial doesn't seem to see much tactical merit in this game, so he's a proponent of macromanagement, which you only approach in 5s, and I think he's mistaken even though I can still readily agree that not every DG should be able to hold their own 1v1 against the DG of their choice.

It depends on the definition of balance in this game for the DGs. Item balance is a different matter.

There two main definitions in this thread or for the game :

1. Balanced play is where every DG should have an equal chance of winning against an opponent DG.

2. Balanced play is where a tactic/build can be countered effectively.

For DG, definition 1 is not really appropriate. The game is not an individual death match.

Definition 2 is more appropriate, however it must be further defined.

In terms of DG balance the "countered effectively" needs to considered, an effective counter would be :

a) There are multiple forms of counter through varying mechanisms. Having only one specific counter would likely mean the tactic/build is not balanced.

Multiple forms of counter does not mean that EVERY DG needs to have access to that counter, that is the point of it being a team game.

c) A counter should ideally have no more cost than the tactic/build. Providing a counter where a DG has to be level 20, in order to beat a level 10 tactic is not balanced.

So using this we can theorycraft some scenarios mentioned :

5UB's - Their skills are easily countered, through Shields, Heals and Pots. Imagine 5 Spit UBs attacking 5 HP stacked Sednas. Not a pretty sight. 5 focused pounces and 10 focused Bishops. Spit DoT would not cut it, can be outhealed. I would say the Sednas would win every engagement, they can focus fire, whereas if the UBs were to try and interrupt heals etc, they would have to split their attacks.

An example, where a build is possibly unbalanced would be Minion Erebus. This build is not effectively countered at the moment without bringing substantially more cost to the table. It can kind of fit Definition 1, however, it is not really the argument that X DG cannot beat him. The argument is that the cost to counter, likely 2 DGs, far outweighs the cost to make the build.

I won't go into reasons, that is for another thread, but that would be my take on balancing for this game.

I would say that stats can fit well for item balancing, which is a slightly different topic. However, stats for DG win percentage and skill usage would have to used carefully. They can show where a DG or skill is woefully out of balance, however to truely determine the balance it would need thorough playtesting by expert players.

I think the game is not really perfect balanced. Lets say if there were 10 points for balancing, Demigod would get 7. Qot and Sednas Yetis are too weak. And Minion EB is imba. But the real point i think where the game is imbalanced is when it goes to the items, specially  hp items vs DPS Items.

I agree. Easy to beat.

5v5 is not about DG selection, its teamwork and sinergy. Theres only 8 DG, and MAYBE, the only way to screw things up is to pick 4 Sins and 1 General, considering no doubles, or 5 Sins, with doubles, again, on a competitive game.

The "problem" of DG balance is the slim choise of DG, only 8. There arent enough DG counters to each DG, there isn't enough diversity, so there will be better selection of DG for 3v3 and 2v2 games.

I have seen 5v5 games where the opposing team chosed to put on a lane 1 Reg + 1 TB. WTF they were thinking, but I digress.

about 30 within 2 months. half vs ai.

Look at WoW tournaments, they were all just RMP vs. RMP for the majority of the game's lifespan up until now, and even now they're still mostly that combo. They provide very little to the big picture.

Also they already announced one but are waiting on rock-solid stat reporting to happen first.