Was Jesus just following an existing myth?

Sodaiho

Join Date 11/2004

+29

Was Jesus just following an existing myth?

staging a messiahship

With palms together,

There is an interesting article in the N Y Times today about a stone tablet found amid the Dead Sea Scrolls. Apparently it suggests that the notion of a suffering messiah who would rise in three days was a common belief in the century prior to the Christian Jesus.

The article suggests:

If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

Hmmm. The death and resurrection myth prior to Jesus' birth? It would seem this adds to the notion advance some decades ago by a Jewish scholar suggesting this whole Jesus script was a scheme to get Jesus recognized as the Messiah, that Jesus was aware of the things that needd to happen before they happened in order to meet the criteria.

And later:

Mr. Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the messiah of the stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept at the time of Jesus. He notes that in the Gospels, Jesus makes numerous predictions of his suffering and New Testament scholars say such predictions must have been written in by later followers because there was no such idea present in his day.

But there was, he said, and “Gabriel’s Revelation” shows it.

“His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to suffer so his blood will be the sign for redemption to come,” Mr. Knohl said. “This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel.”

Strange.

Link

Be well

religion

Locked Post

Advanced Search

Watch this post

Do not email me updates for this post Email me updates for this post

Successfully updated karma reason!

Leauki,

I am reform, oddly traditional. I observe Shabbat much like you do, I keep kosher (made somewhat easier as I am a vegetarian. I recite daily prayers from mt prayerbook, cover my head in shul, wear tallit during morning prayers, and study Talmud weekly. I was recently elected to the Board of Trustees of my Temple.

I am also a Zen Buddhist. Our community is quite progressive, but respectful of tradition as we are the only synagogue in our city and we need to try to meet the needs of the Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist members of our community. Because this is so, we lean more to traditional practices. Our Temple kitchen is kosher, for example. I offer what I call "Zen Judaism" or hitbodedut, Jewish meditation, weekly at the Temple. I teach Jewish spirituality and Jewish history at our Academy of Jewish Learning.

While traditional is many respects (most of our congegants can at least read the prayewrbook in Hebrew) we are also very progressive.

Be well.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Jythier posts:

Pretty sure Jesus was predicted before he came. Yep. Not really big news here.

Yes, that's for sure.

For over 2000 years the OT prophets declared that God had revealed to them the coming of Jesus, the Messias, who was to be the Redeemer of the world.

God promised a Redeemer to Adam in Genesis 3:15. He's to be the stock of Sem 9:26, of Abraham, 22:18, of Isaac 26:4, of Jacob 28:14 , numbers 29:17, of the tribe of Juda 49: 8-10; Heb. 7:14; and of the family of David Isa. 9:7; Rom. 7:3; 2Tim 2:8.

Moses declares that He will be a great Prophet, Deut. 18:15, 18. Isaias 2:4 says that His coming will be proceeded by a universal peace and that He will be born of a Virgin 7:14 in the city of Bethlehem, Micheas 5:2, before the complete subjugation of Israel and the destruction of the 2nd temple Gen. 49:10, Dan. 9: 24-27. Malachais 3:1 writes of His precursor.

The OT prophets continually style the Messias the Lord, Ps. 2:2, Jesus or the Savior Is. 2:5, Habac. 3:8, the Mighty God Is. 9:6, the Emmanuel or God with us 7:14, the father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace 9:6.

They tell us of His poverty, Ps. 86:16, His obedience and meekness, 39:9, 119:7. His public preaching, Is. 9:1-2, St.Matt. 4:15, His miracles, Is. 35:5-6; His founding of a universal, eternal kingdom, Ps. 44:7-8; 2:7-8.

They tell us that Christ will be a rock of scandal and the occasion of ruin of many Is. 8:14 cf, St.Luke 2:34, That He will be sold for 30 peices of silver Zach. 11:12; led as a lamb to the slaughter, Is. 53:7; to be crucified 11:6; while the people mock Him Jer. 20:7; Ps. 21:8, cf St. Matt. 37: 40-42; the soldiers cast lots for His garments Ps. 21:19; cf. St.Matt. 27:34; and offer Him vinegar to drink 68:22 cf St. Matt. 27:34; His sepulchre shall be glorious Isa. 11:10; His body free from corruption Ps. 15:10 and He shall dwell at the right hand of God 15:11, to pour forever His Spirit upon all flesh Joel 2:28.

In light of the NT, these many prophecies prove that Christ was divine. Job identifies the Messias with God: "I know that my Redeemer liveth, and in the last day I shall rise out of the earth...and in my flesh I shall see my God.

The Psalms the sublime hymnbook of Israel declare that the Messias is the Eternal God whose reign shall be for everlasting. Thou art My Son, this day I have begotten Thee" 2:7, Acts. 8:33 and Hebrews 1:5. Jesus Christ was "the Expectation of Israel, the Savior" as the prophet Jeremias foretold 14:8, the "COnsolation of Israel so confidently awaited by the aged Simeon. St. Luke 2:25.

Most of all, Christ Himself always claimed to have fulfilled the prophecies. He said, "Search the Scriptures...the same are they that give testimony of Me. Quoting Isaias 61:1, in the synagague of Nazareth, Christ said, "This day is fulfilled the Scriptures in your ears". when the woman of Samaria spoke of the Messias to come, Christ said to her, "I am He who am speaking with thee." When the disciples on the road to Emmaus didn't recognize Him as the Risen Christ, Christ "beginning at Moses and all the prophets expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things that were concerning Him."

Jythier posts:

Pretty sure Jesus was predicted before he came. Yep. Not really big news here.

Leauki posts:

People like him were predicted.

Who were these people Leauki? and what is your source of info?

But the predictions match several other candidates better than him.

Really? I have just outlined those prophecies....who are the others you are thinking of which are better candidates than Christ? What is your source?

Successfully updated karma reason!

Jythier posts:

Pretty sure he DID know exactly what he was supposed to do to be the Messiah.

Leauki posts:

Perhaps. But he didn't do it. That's an important point Christians often forget: while a Messiah has been predicted in Jewish legend, Jesus of Nazareth did not actually perform the tasks the Messiah was predicted to perform.

What specifically are these predictions in Jewish legend? What is the source of Jewish legend? What are the tasks that the Messias was supposed to perform that you claim Jesus of Nazereth didn't perform?

Leauki posts:

I also don't think Jesus himself claimed to be the Messiah or the son of G-d. That was made up after his death (after one of them, anyway).

Then you haven't read Sacred Scripture.

Christ claims to be the Messias on just about every page of the Gospels especially so in St. John for here Christ speaks for Himself.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Sodaiho posts: #45

Our lives are always God centered.

Sodaiho, If what you say is so, then why do Jews fail to obey Moses command "to hear" Christ ignored?

Aside from the fact that the Jews are no longer a "priestly kingdom", there stands the command of Moses which was that they listen to the "prophet" God would send, whom "thou shalt hear". Deut.18:15.

Sodaiho posts:

Moses never mentioned Jesus.

Here's the quote from Deuteronomy 18:15, 17-19

15 The Lord thy God will raise up to thee a PROPHET of thy nation and of thy brethren like unto me: him thou shalt hear."
17-19 And the Lord said to me: they have spoken all things well. 18 I will raise them up a prophet out of the midst of their brethren like to thee: and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I shall command Him. 19 And he that will not hear his words, which He shall speak in My name, I will be the revenger."

So there you have it....straight from God to Moses.

By golly, you're correct...Moses never mentioned Christ by name, but he did talk about a Prophet. You say that Jews lives are always God centered. OK, then how are they presently obeying what God said to Moses here? If not Christ, who is the prophet that God told Moses He would raise up and that all Jews should hear?

If not Christ, which prophet, whose mouth did God put His own words?

Successfully updated karma reason!

Jytheir posts:

Pretty sure, since He had to be divine to do it, He was the only one who COULD possibly do it. You couldn't, even if you really really wanted to. Neither could anyone else.

Keanu Reeves did it in the Matrix movie.

Isn't this just a little cuckoo?

Leauki posts:

You could say, of course, that he didn't really do it and that only a story was told of him doing it.

And that is what we are talking about here: a story that says that Jesus did it.

Getting back to details, we must consider the source of this greatest story ever told...why yes, the source is Sacred Scripture inspired of God Himself.

Leauki posts:

I wonder if he did it in the same way Muhammed did. He also ascended to heaven from Jerusalem.

How does your "ascending into Heaven" prophet Muhammed (650AD) square with the Talmud, "All the prophets prophecied only to the days of the Messiah" Sandh. 99a.

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Moses never mentioned Jesus.

Yes he did.

There are no references in the Torah or the Prophets to Jesus

Well I just gave you a few above with Isaiah and David. So you don't believe them? I can give you many many more if you'd like. He's mentioned in Genesis 3:15 for the first time. So that would be Moses writing this down btw.

Jesus is all thru the OT. A common saying is the OT is the NT concealed and the NT is the OT revealed. The Apostles used the OT scriptures to reach the first century Jews. They spent many Sabbaths in the Temple reasoning the scriptures with the Jews. They were showing them that Christ fit all the criteria. He was the much anticipated Messiah and this can be seen plainly by comparing his life with the Prophets predictions. Many believed including priests.

a King or Warrior who would defend the Jews, not some idolotrous man-God.

if you were back in the first century, you most likely Sodaiho, would be shaking your fist at him saying "if you are the Messiah save yourself." What you say here is exactly what they said then. They wished for a King or Warrior and Christ didn't fit their description or desire for their deliverer. But like I said before, had they been prepared they would have known this man fit the OT predictions to a tee.

Nothing replaces God's contract

except maybe another contract perhaps?

Its a contract and God is as bound to it as the Jews.

Oh no. It was a conditional contract. You do this and I'll do that kind of thing. Read Deut 28.

"The Lord will etablish you as his holy people as he promised you an oath IF yo keep the commands of the Lord your God and walk in his ways" (they did not) v9

"However IF you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come upon you and over take you (they did)." V15

"The Lord will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess." (he did) v21

"A people that you do not know will eat what your hand and labor produce and you will have nothing but cuel oppression all your days." (happened 700 years later with Babylon captivity)" V33

"All these curses will come upon you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the Lord your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you." (happened-from the Babylonian captivity until 1948 they were disbursed). V45

He's getting ready to deal with Israel's sins and their Day of Atonement is right around the corner. That's why they are back in their land. God is going to turn from the Gentiles (look at what's happening to the churches) and turn towards the Jews once again. Read Zechariah 12 for the result.

God does not require an intermediary like a Jesus. Nor would God accept a sacrifice from an innocent on behalf of others.

Of course he does. Don't you agree the Passover Lamb was innocent and was shed for each family? Don't you agree the Levitical laws surrounding the sacrifices were all part of animals taking the place of human blood? Remember Adam and Eve when they first sinned? What life was taken instead of theirs? An innocent animal. God said he requires blood for a life. "For the life of a creature is in the blood and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life" Lev 17:11 Just read Leviticus 4-5 to see that what you've said here is in error.

What about the scapegoat? The priest put his hands on the head of the scapegoat transferring all the sins of the people to the goat and sent him away to die outside the camp. This was a picture of Christ. The whole OT is a picture of Christ.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Lula posts:

The problem is Rabbinic Judaism is of man, not of God. That alone should tell you something.

Sodaiho posts:

Lula, This is so far from the truth its ridiculous. Your knowledge of Judaism and its practices is practically nil.

I'm quite fascinated with Old Testament Judaism which was imperfect and prepatory. It's Almighty God's way of giving true religion to mankind gradually through Moses the lawgiver and written law and after him a series of prophets to explain the law and to predict the coming of the Messias. Christ fulfilled these and taught the perfect law of God which is Judaism's perfect fulfillment and the Jews should have recognized it and accepted it. They didn't and CHrist sent His Apostles to preach to the Gentiles.

Earlier, Leauki mentioned something about Christianity being a sect of Judaism, but that's not the case although many perceived it this way. Christianity is the perfect development of Old Testament religion just as the perfect tree is the perfect development of the seed from which it grew.

On the other hand, Rabbinic, Pharisaic or Talmudic Judaism scares me becasue it was developed by the revolutionary Jews who rejected Christ. You may say that

Rabbinic Judaism saved Judaism in a time of tremendous upheaval when the Temple was destroyed. The priests were essentially replaced by the rabbis and these are the people who studied closely the Bible to understand how we are to live.

but as far as I can tell, it's led the Jewish people who follow it into a disastrous state of affairs and heartache.

Sodaiho posts:

Nothing replaces God's contract. Its a contract and God is as bound to it as the Jews. We can and do keep God's laws.

Here's where you're wrong on this, Sodaiho. God has kept His side of the contract, but the Jews haven't theirs.

Talmudic Judaism was developed as a response to Christianity. After Christ's death, the Book of Acts gives us an accurate account of how badly the Jews persecuted other Jews and Gentiles who converted to the early Christian Church. This went on for 30 some years, when the Jews turned and rebelled against Rome and the Roman Army under Titus retaliated by destroying the Temple and Jerusalem leaving the Jews with no temple, no sacrifice, and no way of fulfilling their covenant.

A rabbi, Jochanan ben Zakkai was smuggled out of Jerusalem and as a friend of Rome was allowed to found a rabbinical school at Javne. So 30 years after the founding of the Church, modern, rabbinic Judaism was born as a response.

Let's be clear...at this time there is no temple, no priest, no sacrifice. The Jews are no longer the children of Moses performing rituals in fulfillment of their covenant. It ain't happening. This foolhardy contention that somehow there is continuity that comes from the Old Covenant is false. Israel is a house divided and will be as long as this dual ethic is propagated by Talmudists.

In the absence of the Jewish preisthood, Temple, Sanhedrin, and sacrifices, Rabbinic Judaism has become a debating society...the results of those debates is a compilation of doctrinal and ritual opinions, interpretations, discussions, legends, anecdotes, quaint sayings, superstititions, magical practices, and profanities of over a thousand rabbis belonging to various schools, is what is known as the Talmud...that's why I said Rabbinic Judaism is made of man, not of God.

You said that the rabbis studied closely the Bible to understand how we are to live...

The Talmud is colored by a hostile attitude of the rabbis towards Christianity and especially the Christian interpretation of Old Testament texts. I think it's safe to say that the Talmud has rivalled the Torah in importance and according to one rabbi all subsequent codifications of Jewish law are binding only becasue they are summaries of the material in the talmud, which is considered to be the source of all law.

So, if Jews are so God centered as you say and if the rabbis really studied closely the Bible, then why oh why haven't the Talmudists "searched the Scriptures" and easily seen that the Mosaic Law was fulfilled in Jesus Christ?

Successfully updated karma reason!

By golly, you're correct...Moses never mentioned Christ by name, but he did talk about a Prophet.

So perhaps Muhammed was right and Jesus was a prophet and not a son of G-d?

Or Moses was referring to any of the other prophets yet to come at that point.

Maybe he meant a different rabbi who left at the same time as Jesus and we all missed him?

Successfully updated karma reason!

So, if Jews are so God centered as you say and if the rabbis really studied closely the Bible, then why oh why haven't the Talmudists "searched the Scriptures" and easily seen that the Mosaic Law was fulfilled in Jesus Christ?

They have searched the scriptures. But Jesus wasn't in them.

Perhaps Moses announced Muhammed?

Is there anything in the "Old Testament" that "announces" Jesus but rules out Muhammed?

Successfully updated karma reason!

I am reform, oddly traditional. I observe Shabbat much like you do, I keep kosher (made somewhat easier as I am a vegetarian. I recite daily prayers from my prayerbook, cover my head in shul, wear tallit during morning prayers, and study Talmud weekly.

Very good. I don't study Talmud. Perhaps I should. As for the daily prayers... I have a prayerbook and occasionally read from it. I am not the type for daily prayers.

I was recently elected to the Board of Trustees of my Temple.

Congratulations!

I am also a Zen Buddhist.

Don't know much about Buddhism, except the basic stuff (i.e. the tree, what a Buddha is etc.).

Our community is quite progressive, but respectful of tradition as we are the only synagogue in our city and we need to try to meet the needs of the Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist members of our community.

There are four synagogues in Dublin. (There less than one million inhabitants in Dublin and maybe 1500 Jews in all the country.)

Because this is so, we lean more to traditional practices. Our Temple kitchen is kosher, for example.

Call me fundamentalist, but I figure that that should be a given.

I offer what I call "Zen Judaism" or hitbodedut, Jewish meditation, weekly at the Temple. I teach Jewish spirituality and Jewish history at our Academy of Jewish Learning.

Not my thing, really.

I am not the spiritual type.

While traditional in many respects (most of our congregants can at least read the prayerbook in Hebrew) we are also very progressive.

My most traditional exercise is getting Chinese food after shul.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Lula,

It might surprise you to learn that Judaism has been without a temple at several occasions.

Successfully updated karma reason!

What about the scapegoat? The priest put his hands on the head of the scapegoat transferring all the sins of the people to the goat and sent him away to die outside the camp. This was a picture of Christ.

Wow. You see Christ everywhere, don't you? Is there a single sentence in the "Old Testament" that cannot be constructed to be about Jesus?

What about other books?

Successfully updated karma reason!

God promised a Redeemer to Adam in Genesis 3:15. He's to be the stock of Sem 9:26, of Abraham, 22:18, of Isaac 26:4, of Jacob 28:14 , numbers 29:17, of the tribe of Juda 49: 8-10; Heb. 7:14; and of the family of David Isa. 9:7; Rom. 7:3; 2Tim 2:8. Moses declares that He will be a great Prophet, Deut. 18:15, 18. Isaias 2:4 says that His coming will be proceeded by a universal peace and that He will be born of a Virgin 7:14 in the city of Bethlehem, Micheas 5:2, before the complete subjugation of Israel and the destruction of the 2nd temple Gen. 49:10, Dan. 9: 24-27. Malachais 3:1 writes of His precursor. The OT prophets continually style the Messias the Lord, Ps. 2:2, Jesus or the Savior Is. 2:5, Habac. 3:8, the Mighty God Is. 9:6, the Emmanuel or God with us 7:14, the father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace 9:6. They tell us of His poverty, Ps. 86:16, His obedience and meekness, 39:9, 119:7. His public preaching, Is. 9:1-2, St.Matt. 4:15, His miracles, Is. 35:5-6; His founding of a universal, eternal kingdom, Ps. 44:7-8; 2:7-8. They tell us that Christ will be a rock of scandal and the occasion of ruin of many Is. 8:14 cf, St.Luke 2:34, That He will be sold for 30 peices of silver Zach. 11:12; led as a lamb to the slaughter, Is. 53:7; to be crucified 11:6; while the people mock Him Jer. 20:7; Ps. 21:8, cf St. Matt. 37: 40-42; the soldiers cast lots for His garments Ps. 21:19; cf. St.Matt. 27:34; and offer Him vinegar to drink 68:22 cf St. Matt. 27:34; His sepulchre shall be glorious Isa. 11:10; His body free from corruption Ps. 15:10 and He shall dwell at the right hand of God 15:11, to pour forever His Spirit upon all flesh Joel 2:28. In light of the NT, these many prophecies prove that Christ was divine. Job identifies the Messias with God: "I know that my Redeemer liveth, and in the last day I shall rise out of the earth...and in my flesh I shall see my God. The Psalms the sublime hymnbook of Israel declare that the Messias is the Eternal God whose reign shall be for everlasting. Thou art My Son, this day I have begotten Thee" 2:7, Acts. 8:33 and Hebrews 1:5. Jesus Christ was "the Expectation of Israel, the Savior" as the prophet Jeremias foretold 14:8, the "COnsolation of Israel so confidently awaited by the aged Simeon. St. Luke 2:25. Most of all, Christ Himself always claimed to have fulfilled the prophecies. He said, "Search the Scriptures...the same are they that give testimony of Me. Quoting Isaias 61:1, in the synagague of Nazareth, Christ said, "This day is fulfilled the Scriptures in your ears". when the woman of Samaria spoke of the Messias to come, Christ said to her, "I am He who am speaking with thee." When the disciples on the road to Emmaus didn't recognize Him as the Risen Christ, Christ "beginning at Moses and all the prophets expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things that were concerning Him."

Good Morning Lula, may you be a blessing in the universe.

These are a rather large assortment of text citations. You must understand, test has a context. In most cases they prohet is responding to a current situation. He may be talking about a king, such as David or Solomon. He may be taking about a hope for the future, giving solace to the people in the throes of hardship. But to suggest that citations from the Tanakh point to a single individual is like making sense of a horoscope. Prophacy focused Christians seem to do this all the time: ignore the historical context in favor of a contemporanious application. They are like modern day fortune tellers. Which, in my view, is an insult to the prophets and blasphemy of the text.

I'll repeat myself: No where in the Torah, the Writings, or the Prophets is Jesus mentioned or even alluded to. To read Jesus into these texts is like reading tea leaves. Not wise as it demeans the text itself.

Be well.

Successfully updated karma reason!

MasonM, if you are still reading this, I just noticed you, "With elbows together" LOL

I hope things are well with you. With palms together, a bow to you.

Successfully updated karma reason!

It might surprise you to learn that Judaism has been without a temple at several occasions.

Leauki,

I'm interested. Could you be a little more specific?

Successfully updated karma reason!

MasonM, if you are still reading this, I just noticed you, "With elbows together" LOL
I hope things are well with you. With palms together, a bow to you.

A little humor goes a long way, eh?

Peace.

Successfully updated karma reason!

So perhaps Muhammed was right and Jesus was a prophet and not a son of G-d?

By your statement Muhammed was half right!

Unlike revolutionary Jews and Talmudic Judaism who reject Christ altogether, Muhammadism (Islam) doesn't....they recognize and honor Christ as a Prophet but by rejecting the Trinity and the Incarnation fail to recognize Christ as God.

Rabbinic, Talmudic, Pharisaic, Judaism manifests itself by revolution against Christ (Logos), while Islam manifests itself against Christ by military conquest.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I'm interested. Could you be a little more specific?

When Moses brought the law, the Children of Israel were nomadic; they just fled Egypt.

The law didn't demand a temple but merely a portable place of worship, the Mishkan (also called the tabernacle, because it was a tent sort-of-thing). The root WKN means "neighbour", MWKN means "dwelling place". It was a place for G-d to "dwell" (symbolically) among His people.

Over a hundred years later, after Israel had taken Jerusalem, king Solomon built a temple to replace the tabernacle. The temple was built on one of the hills where Abraham nearly sacrificed Isaac. The Hebrew name for the temple is Beyt Miqdash (from "bayit" = "house" and "miqdash" = temple (i.e. "thing that is holy").

About 500 years later the Babylonians destroyed the temple and Judaism was without a temple again. However, the Persians conquered the Babylonian Empire and built a new temple.

It stood for another 500 years on the same hill as the first one until it was destroyed in 70 CE by the Romans who were at that time in the habit of killing Jews (including the odd rabbi named Jesus).

Since then there hasn't been a temple.

Judaism has rules for both life with and life without a temple. But the original rules did not speak of a temple.

Did it never occur to you that since Moses received the laws in the desert of Sinai and not in an existing temple in Jerusalem, the law could not possibly REQUIRE the temple to exist (since it didn't)?

The temple cannot be rebuilt now because Umar had a mosque built at its place (presumably to protect the site against vandalism).

It's sad but luckily the temple is not necessary.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting lulapilgrim,

comment 68

So perhaps Muhammed was right and Jesus was a prophet and not a son of G-d?By your statement Muhammed was half right! Unlike revolutionary Jews and Talmudic Judaism who reject Christ altogether, Muhammadism (Islam) doesn't....they recognize and honor Christ as a Prophet but by rejecting the Trinity and the Incarnation fail to recognize Christ as God. Rabbinic, Talmudic, Pharisaic, Judaism manifests itself by revolution against Christ (Logos), while Islam manifests itself against Christ by military conquest.

Unlike revolutionary Jews and Talmudic Judaism who reject Christ altogether, Muhammadism (Islam) doesn't....they recognize and honor Christ as a Prophet but by rejecting the Trinity and the Incarnation fail to recognize Christ as God. Rabbinic, Talmudic, Pharisaic, Judaism manifests itself by revolution against Christ (Logos), while Islam manifests itself against Christ by military conquest.

Hello Again, Lula. Strange, your thoughts here. There was no revolution against Christ by Jews. Jews just wanted to be left alone by the missionary Christians, including Paul. There is no such thing as "Talmudic Judaism" either. I fear you are making up language as you go. Again, Talmud is simply a very lengthy and often lively rabbinic discussion regarding how to apply Torah to everyday life. What you should mean is, "Rabbinic Judaism". It doesn't reject Jesus as a person, but rather any claim by him or his followers as to his divinity or messiahship.

Judaism has a long tradition of living to let live. Jews support pluralism. It supports religious freedom. It has always welcomed what are called "righteous strangers" in its midst. True, there are talmudic concerns about Christians studying scripture, but those concerns were about the motives of the study, that is, were Christians trying to learn sacred writings in order to attack Jews? (Something that has, indeed, happened for millenia. (I recall giving you a reference for a 2000 year history of Christian atrocities againsat Jews.) Whereas Jews rarely attack Christians. As Leauki said, as a culture, we just want to be left alone.

Be well.

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

So perhaps Muhammed was right and Jesus was a prophet and not a son of G-d?

Jesus was the only one who is called Prophet, Priest and King. No other man in scripture can claim this. Moses was a prophet and leader. Saul, a King performed priestly duties and was condemned for it. Samuel was both Prophet and Priest. David was a King and Prophet but not a priest. Only Christ can successfully be considered all three.

Or Moses was referring to any of the other prophets yet to come at that point.

Moses gave Israel one of the greatest Messianic prophecies (Deut 18:15-19). He prophesied that God would raise up the Messiah to be like Moses so that God's people would recognize him.

An analysis of the life of Moses and the ife of Jesus of Nazareth reveals at least 50 parallels in their lives. The similarities are evident in their leadership and authority. As Moses appointed 70 rulers over Israel Jesus annointed 70 disciples to tach the nations. Moses stretched forth his hand over the Red Sea to command it and Jesus rebuked the Sea of Galilee to quiet the waves. Moses sent 12 spies to explore Canaan Jesus sent 12 Apostles to reach the world. Moses and Jesus both cured lepers and proved their authority thru miracles. The people were ungrateful and rebelled against the leadership of both men. The generations that rebelled against Moses died for their lack of faith in the wilderness. Those who rebelled against Jesus died in the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Their personal lives show a parallelism as well. The Bible never indicates that either one experienced sickness. Moses and Jesus both died on a hilltop, neither of their bodies remained in a tomb. Both fasted 40 days and faced spiritual crises on mountaintops. Both of their faces shone with the glory of heaven-Moses on Mt. Sinai, Jesus on Mt. of Transfiguration.

The greatest resemblance between Moses and Jesus occurred in their ministries among people. During the Passover both Moses and Jesus freed all people who wold listen to them and Trust God's word. Moses rescued Israel from the dead religion of pagan Egypt. Jesus rescued Israel from the dead letter of the law of tradition. As Moses conquered the great enemy of Israel the Amalekites with upraised arms, Jesus conquered the great enemy of sin and death with his upraised arms on a cross. Moses lifted up the braen serpent in the wilderness to heal his people, Jesus was lifted up on the cross to heal all people from sin.

God is a covenant keeping God and the promises made about the Messiah have all come true in Jesus Christ. That all of these similarities are beyond the ability of human control, compels one to believe that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah that Moses spoke of in Deut 18 is clear to be seen if you have eyes to see.

Now, would you like me to show you even more ways that Joseph was Christ-like? No one in the OT was more like Christ than Joseph.

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

It might surprise you to learn that Judaism has been without a temple at several occasions.

Israel was without a temple at all until David and Solomon's Great Temple was built. Before that the temple was a tent. Then after the Babylonians destroyed Solomon's grand temple the Jews were exiled.

Nehemiah was instrumental in building the next one (second temple) that lasted up until the days of Jesus. Herod spent many years perfecting the existing temple so it was sometimes called Herod's Temple. So the only time the Jews really had a Temple to begin with was during the days of Solomon (first temple) and then 70 years later the rebuilt temple (during Ezra and Nehemiah) which was destroyed in 70 AD. So the Jews have basically been longer without a temple than with one. The next temple to be built (according to scripture) the Anti-Christ will sit on the throne and declare himself God. So we are awaiting the next temple to be built for the fulfillment of last day prophecies.

Is there anything in the "Old Testament" that "announces" Jesus but rules out Muhammed?

yes, lots. Born of a virgin....a root out of dry ground....born in Bethlehem. Despised by many. Nothing to look at..... Crucified with the poor, buried with the rich....etc.

Wow. You see Christ everywhere, don't you? Is there a single sentence in the "Old Testament" that cannot be constructed to be about Jesus?

What about other books?

Yes I do. I'm not alone Leauki. Christ is all throughout the OT just like I showed you the similarities to Moses. You can see him with Abraham, Jacob, David, Moses, Joseph, etc. They all exhibit Christ in their personalities. We also see the pre-incarnate Christ at certain times in the OT....for instance in one of the three strangers that visited Abraham to tell him of the impending birth of Isaac.

Luke wrote this:

"He (Jesus) said to them, "How foolish you are and how slow of heart to belive all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the scriptures concerning himself. Luke 24:26

Jesus said this himself and I believe he is speaking to Sodaiho and Leauki:

"You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not belive the one he sent. You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures (OT) that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

Successfully updated karma reason!

Frankly, KFC, I think its wonderful that you have a God named Jesus. I think its wonderful I have a God, I AM. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could pray together? We should each pray in our own ways, respectful of each other. We should each celebrate and respect our religion's holidays.

Its obviously important to you to find Jesus in the Hebrew scripture, to draw parallels of Moses and Jesus, God bless you. As for me, I have the original scripture. I need no new testament. I need no parallels. I have God in my heart and life in each and every moment. May we both be a blessing.

When we become one with the Infinite, we need not worry. When we are one, there is no birth or death, no future or past, just this eternal now. God is like that, awesome, eternal, ever-present, non-dual.

May you be a blessing.

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

So perhaps Muhammed was right and Jesus was a prophet and not a son of G-d?By your statement Muhammed was half right

He was a Prophet. But he was more than that. As I said earlier Christ was the only one to fill three offices...Prophet, Priest and King.

But Muhammed made a mistake. A Prophet's is one whose words should be heeded. By calling Jesus a Prophet he was saying we need to listen to him right? Well this Prophet declared himself God. What now? He also said he was the only way to the Father in Heaven and that no one could get to heaven outside of Him. Muhammed didn't believe this.

Some say Jesus was a good teacher. Ok. If he was good, then he was telling us the truth right? If he was good, then what he said we should listen to right? Again, why do we call him good but do not listen to his words?

There was no revolution against Christ by Jews. Jews just wanted to be left alone by the missionary Christians, including Paul

Of course there was. (The first Christians were Jews btw.) Paul was a Jew among Jews. He was a Pharisee among Pharisees from the line of Benjamin and a staunch believer and keeper of the law. He was a leader against the revolution against Christ and his followers by his own admission.

If anything Paul's changed life is quite an eye opening event...for those who have eyes to see.

"For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism how intensely I persecuted the chuch of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beynd many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers." Paul writing to the Galatians.

Successfully updated karma reason!

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Frankly, KFC, I think its wonderful that you have a God named Jesus. I think its wonderful I have a God, I AM.

That's just it Sodaiho...Jesus is the I AM of the OT. You would be a Jew who does not recognize this. I would be a Jew (by heritage) that does believe this to be true.

Its obviously important to you to find Jesus in the Hebrew scripture, to draw parallels of Moses and Jesus,

Well it's not hard to do. The OT has Jesus all thru it. Do you remember Moses not being able to go into the Promised Land? He was able to see it but not allowed to enter. Do you know why? He struck the rock ( symbol of Christ) that provided water twice. Christ would only be struck once and Moses disobeyed and therefore paid the consequnce. Christ called himself "living water" and is a reference to this OT time.

As for me, I have the original scripture.

As do I.

In the town of Barea Paul was preaching the OT scriptures. (Acts 17) The Bareans would not believe Paul until they searched the scriptures to verify if what he was speaking was true. They did find out he was telling them the truth and Paul commended the Bareans for searching out the truth. I consider myself a Barean. I take no one's word for anything unless I search it out for myself.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Well, he was following the Judaic myths, as in he came after them. In fact, Christians still use the Jewish holy manuscript today. Same religion, new chapters.

Successfully updated karma reason!